Clear institute! Been there. Done that

[Bish]

Hi Pam

I guess that was a little blunt! Hahaha! I was kind of time constrained when i wrote it. By the way I saw your pics on your profile. Its funny how your curve doesn't look much worse than mine in an Xray, but mine is only latter 20's in degree. HMMM. Maybe mine are underestimated. Your body hides it well too. Most people would never guess I had a problem either. Although I am sure those flashy pants you are wearing in the photo would not look as good on me. Bish

[txmarinemom]

By the way I saw your pics on your profile. Its funny how your curve doesn't look much worse than mine in an Xray, but mine is only latter 20's in degree. HMMM. Maybe mine are underestimated. Your body hides it well too.

Yeah, I think in my case, it's due to the compensatory C and L curves that balance things out - and keep my head mostly centered over my pelvis.

It took seeing my xrays for most to exclaim "HOLY S^*&!" ... they didn't have a clue.

Regards,
Pam

[yellowfish]

Haha, that's OK. I'm new here, I don't really know how to put my little profile out. I just turned 25, my degree is 25 as well, diagnosed 10 years ago. I never have significant pain, so I never bother for treatment. I guess I'm a lot luckier than most patients here. But recently I heard that the pain will grow as I age, and I do get annoyed by my back's curve, I don't dare to wear any tight clothing or bikini, I just feel so bad about it. So when I heard my cousin treated her leg length difference, I was hoping for miracle. But there are just way too many fake treatment out there. I'll update you guys as I start my treatment.

[yellowfish]

Pam, I just saw your picture, your back doesn't look too much different than me either, maybe even better than me wearing that tight shirt. Anyways, wish you luck with your surgery!

[LindaY.]

Back to the subject of Dr. Woggon

I have looked at this site many times, desperately looking for scoliosis info. When I did a search for Dr. Woggon at Clear Institute I wanted to read from people who have been there, what their results were and if they have maintained the improvement, or not. Did you or your child continue to do all the exercises he teaches? That would be a big factor in the success of any treatment you choose.
My daughter Michelle has been going to Woggon since 11/7/07. She is 14, had been involved in gymnastics for a few years but not for the past 2 years. She has been in JustForKix dance since first grade and now made the high school danceline with lots of practice and flexibility. Diagnosed with scoliosis in 2004, told to wait (of course). Told in October 07 at Gillette Children's in St.Paul, MN to get surgery in March 08. We did some research, would only do surgery as a last resort, and decided to try something while waiting. Michelle had angles of cerv. 27, thor 53, and lumb 42. Would they be 30,60,50 by March?
Dr. Woggon is eccentric with several of his own inventions to manipulate the scoliosis curves. He also gives several exercises to do there and at home. My husband and I have watched what he and his assistants do and it all makes sense although we go through times of being skeptical. We thought her back was looking better and after a month of visiting 3 times/week for 4 weeks her re exam results were good: cerv 14, thor 47, and lumb 30. We have seen many teens from around the country come in for a week or two at a time with similar results. There are binders full of photos and xrays of patients with similar results. The problem, we don't hear much from people who were there years ago and still are maintaining their improvements. There was one guy who has been there 3 times for a week each time, over the past year and a half. He started with a curve over 100 and has improved each time.
My conclusion is that Dr. Woggon has looked at how the body works, taken years to tweak his treatments, and he can lessen the scoliosis curves in a lot of people. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone, maybe everyone doesn't commit to doing all the exercises. Isn't it better to reduce the curves by 10-15 degrees and be doing something to help yourself throgh the exercises? (most of them are not hard to do, stretches basically, except that darn Echart table which moves your legs up and down while you are strapped on, pulling your curves in the opposite direction. With busy kids, it is hard to find the time to do them.) Being "lucky" enough to travel 1:45min to his office 3x/week and now 2x/week (Feb), will maybe work better than those who come for a one week visit. We foresee going to once/week then 2/month, 1/month over the next years. We knew going in, that it would be a long-term commitment. Wouldn't you expect that after waiting so long for it to get this bad that it would take a while to improve? Instead of seeing her curves getting worse, we've see her shoulder sticking out less, her back straighter, and her being less self-conscience about her appearance. I give a lot of credit to Michelle for working so hard for this.
There are a lot of doctors around the world doing similar exercise technics, with good results. We think it's worth the try. We will see what Gillette says when we visit again at the end of March. I'll keep you posted.
We want to hear from those who have been to Clear Institute and your results - especially anyone who was there a few years ago or who visits his office monthly, or less often, to maintain their improvement. Thanks, LindaY.

[LindaRacine]

Isn't it better to reduce the curves by 10-15 degrees and be doing something to help yourself throgh the exercises?

Hi Linda...

I think one also has to consider a few additional elements before passing judgment. For example, at what cost do those 10-15 degrees come (to either yourself or to society), and will the reduction be permanent, or keep one from having to undergo surgery.

--Linda

[LindaY.]

Hello Linda, always good to meet another Linda!
The cost is a lot (about $7000 so far) and we have to keep after our insurance, Aetna, to cover it. Clear Institute does help us out with that although they only file with BlueCross/Blue Shield. Surgery would be over $150,000. Is that justified? That's a whole dif. issue - what insurance companies choose to pay for or not.
Michelle's Dr at Gillette Children's and local Dr waited til her curves were at 50 before talking about surgery and they said they wouldn't do it unless it is that bad. We assume that they won't want to do it since, in Dec., they were at C14, Th47, & L30, and she's still working hard at it. We won't know the answer to that til March 26 when we return to Gillette. We plan on keeping an eye on it over the next several years with the local dr. and/or Gillette. We all know we're in this for the long haul, we assume the exercises will not always get done depending on what's going on in her teen years, but, overall, we are seeing results now and don't think surgery is gonna happen. I guess we all do what we think is best when we are doing it. After 3 and a half months at Clear Institute, we still see it working for Michelle and feel it is the best for our family right now.
I have to say that I don't think her improvement would "stick" if today she quit her exercises and visits to Dr. Woggon. If anyone knows of a treatment that does cure scoliosis and you never have to do anything again, PLEASE let us all know. I would assume some of the other methods such as the scroth clinic in Wisconsin, the ones in Germany, Italy, and certain ones all over the world do work. They're all started by people like Dr. Woggon, who have studied, researched, tried many methods, and really thought things through, and they are actually doing what many people say can not be done.
Keep doing what you think is best -
Please reply here if you have tried Clear Institute and Dr. Woggon's technique. Thanks BlueCrystalMan for your info. Isn't it wonderful to see improvement instead of waiting and watching it get worse! That is priceless!

[WNCmom]

BlueCrystalMan:

Thanks for the detailed description way back in January. I've been away and just now read your post of Nick's progress with Clear Institute on his last day of treatment. One thing I missed--do you have his cobb angle post-treatment? I'm curious to know how much his curve was reduced (you mentioned you could see it was reduced just by looking). Did you have non-weight x-rays done, and if not, why not? Seems like it would be good to compare apples and apples.

I am curious about this because I'm looking into it for my own son, a few years younger, with a T curve similar to Nick's.

Mary Ellen

[LindaY.]

Woggon helped us avoid surgery

Update: Our 14 yr old daughter Michelle has been doing the CLEAR exercises and adjustments since 11/07/07, 3X/wk for 5 wks, now in March it's 2x/wk, soon to go down to 1/wk. We live a couple hrs. away so didn't do the intense 1 or 2 wk program that people from around the country and world are doing. The exercises are not difficult, just time consuming, (all of our fitness programs are) but Michelle knows this scoliosis is part of her life, it took years to get this bad while we did nothing, it will take a long-term commitment to take control of it. She knows surgery would limit her mobility, she would have months of pain, and she would have to do exercises or therapy afterward anyway, why not do it now and learn how to correct her body mechanics. We were thinking that when we took her back to the orthopedic surgeon we would expect angles to increase at least 5 degrees over the past 5 months as they had increased by 15 degrees over the last 18 months and by 10 degrees over the previous 6 months. We were worried that they would want to schedule rod surgery. We just prayed for it to be unchanged!
We revisited Gillette Children's Hospital in St.Paul March 26 for a 4 month recheck. Original angles were T51, L43 didn't measure C-neck. Now angles were T49 and L39. The dr. called it unchanged. We were very happy to hear that! (even if we saw that it was actually a few degrees improved.) Sure, there are those few degrees of measuring error but, hey, not worse, no surgery, come back in a year and every year until she's 18 or 20 yrs. old. And, he said to continue what she's doing.

As we have come to understand, Dr. Woggon's program improves the curves, they do not immediately stay at those lower degrees but over time, and with the patients exercise, they will hold at lower and lower numbers, lower than if left to watch and wait. It does cost a lot of money, (some is being covered by our insurance), takes time, but doesn't everything worth fighting for. After these 5 months of this program, Michelle is finally realizing that how she walks, sits, holds her head, and sleeps affects her spine. She has told Dr. Woggon that a couple exercises don't seem to do anything, he watched her do them and taught her what area it should be working and where she should feel it. He gave her a DVD with how and why to do all the exercises.
Dr. Woggon is doing what some say can not be done. Other chiropractors hold him in the highest regard, are sending their patients to him, and are coming to see how he is improving the outlook for so many kids and adults with scoliosis. He is featured in The American Chiropractor magazine with the entire April issue dedicated to scoliosis - very interesting.
I'd love to hear from more of you who have been doing the CLEAR Institute program. Keep doing your exercises! It's your life!

[krissysmom]

OK. I am going to try to keep a long story short here. Some of you may remember I was talking a while back about going to the clear institute in Minnessota. Well, I did. I went for one week in march at a cost of $3000 U.S plus airfare and hotel from Vancouver Canada. You may have already read in some other previous posts a little about the treatment methods so I won't fill this post with that stuff. I will just get straight to the good stuff, the results! I have had chronic pain 24hrs a day from curves not typically associated with such. Before going I had curves of 23 and 25 measured by my last radiologist in Canada and confirmed by Dr. Woggon at 23/26 before treatment. After treatment................? 13/18 amazing eh!?Along with that, a number of other pseudo scientific positive results! Great huh? ..........Well not so fast. Pain.... unchanged. I had my concerns to say the least about the whole deal so I went to confirm these measurements again with my radiologist in Canada two weeks later......... 24/26....... huh what do ya know. Strange? I am sure you are sensing my sarcasm by now.
Anyways I could write a book on this so I will hit you with my key thoughts about the treatment. Problems...... 1.had about 20 or more different treatment methods going on in the same day. Made me wonder how one could scientifically determine what treatment was doing what. 2. some of the key treatment methods that have been supposedly reducing curves had recently been significantly changed (like I mean total opposite). 3. some key treatment methods had been recently altered because they were causing the problem they were supposed to be fixing! ( will elaborate later) .
Anyways, you get where I am going with this. I have more goodies I will share at a later date. But let's just say there were even more serious concerns I had than these.
Now, I would love to say I came up with this myself, but in fact my wife looked at photos of my before and after xrays from the clinic in Minnessota and came up with a theory. Here it is. Before treatment, xrays were taken breathing out...... and after treatment xrays were taken breathing in, thus resulting in a positive looking post X-ray. Sound too simple? I presented my theory to the radiologist in Canada and pretty much had our theory verified with about 95% accuracy (based on her best guess). So you can draw your own conclusions. I made a suggestion a number of months ago about wanting to make a contribution to a new fund, to send a forum member to the clear institute. Lots of people pooh poohed that. Haha! And that is O.K, I was only trying to provoke some thought. So here is my little contribution to investigating a non surgical alternative to scoliosis reduction, I tried it myself.


I had hopes about the treatment, but I am a born skeptic and was expecting the worst. Kinda one of those things I had to get out of my head and give it a shot. Can't succeed if you don't take a chance. All the best, Bish.

Bish,
Hi there. I am so glad that I ran across your posting. I have been consdering bringing my daughter to the Clear institute. We are also looking into the Schoth method and we just couldn't decide. Thanks so much for you input. Hollyn

[FiniteJane]

Unhappy with Clear Institute

I was very upset with the treatment I received from the Clear Institute (to the extent that I would consider it a sham). I went to Dr Woggon in St. Cloud in 2006. I drove from Canada and spent about $2500. My first complaint: he claims he will only book you with one other scoliosis patient at a time, but in reality, he crams as many patients through their as he can so you spend a lot of time with his assistants. Complaint #2: when I was there his assistants were two young women (18-22) with no training. They were responsible for taking a lot of my measurements and overseeing the exercises and stretches I was supposed to do, as well as setting me up in many of the contraptions Dr Woggon uses (he has all sort of contraptions in various stages of completion, many which he is "still figuring out" so you have to "bare with him" on your dime. These women were obviously very stressed and unhappy. Dr Woggon runs around spewing out lists of exercises and protocols for treating each patient and then takes off. The two girls were left there starring in bewilderment like they only caught 10% of what he said. Then they proceed to direct me on the exercises I should do. Your treatment unfolds like circuit training. You do a series of stretches and exercises, then get a massage (from a machine, so it is not as good as it sounds) and then get adjusted by Dr Woggon, then are put into contraptions that "realign you" and then go through the whole thing again and again and again...all day. I was there for a day and a half. Most of this time was spent with the two assistants who were so unhappy they could barely look at me. They spent most of their time complaining about Dr Woggon, making fun of the patients, and fighting over what was to be done. While setting me up in one contraption, one of the girls said to the other, "can you look at this, I don't think its right?" The other girl replied "no, but leave it, it serves him right." I said "excuse me ladies, I just drove here from Canada for this treatment. If you have any doubts about what you are doing, I want you to ask Dr. Woggon about it now." They did. He came to rearrange me and then confused himself (he forgot which way my spine curved). After fiddling around for a while he said, "sorry, I am still working this out...most of my stuff here is patent pending." Nice. Perhaps you should start billing people $1000 a day after you figure it out! Complaint #3: I have little faith in all of the before and after measurements for several reasons. Firstly, the assistants do a lot of the measurements and they are not paying attention to what they are doing. The measurements are also more complicated than one would think. They have a hand-held device that is supposed to measure force and resistance. They hold it to different parts of your body and ask you to push against it or resist force. They are looking for asymmetries in strength and flexibility. The problem is that everybody has asymmetries, including the assistants, which should be factored into the equation (for testing my left side she holds the device in her right hand, for testing my right side she holds it in her left hand...but how much of the change was me and how much was her?). I also did think she wasn't concentrating enough to be consistent in what she was doing. The other measurement issue is to do with the x-rays. Dr Woggon takes the "before" x-rays as is (without any aids or posture corrections). He takes the after x-rays with all sorts of contraptions on you: head weights, hip weights, special glasses that force you to look up (which puts a arch in your neck) etc. Any researcher will tell you that this is bunk! You cannot compare before's and after's accurately if you take them under different circumstances and with different aides and interventions. I saw a osteopath who had me move into a series of different positions to see if my curves would change by positioning alone, and guess what, they did. She charged me $60 for this one hour assessment and treatment (which is a little less than the amount of one-on-one time I had with Dr Woggon... for close to $2000). Complaint #4: several of the adjustments that were done to me were painful. Some of these adjustments are controversial, I think one has even been banned in Canada because it can cause internal hemoragging. I saw Dr. Woggon using these adjustments on everyone who came in, regardless if they had scoliosis or not, so I think he is using a one-size fits all approach for most of the treatment you will get...he just changes the stretches and contraptions based on your curve...if he can remember how it goes. RECOMMENDATION: Save your money. I will sum up for you the most important things I learned. First, be aware of your neck positioning and try various exercises to get a curve back in your neck. No spine can be stick straight, it needs curves. People with scoliosis often lack the natural curves (particularly in their necks) so their bodies make new ones. If your neck lacks a curve and is protruding forward (which is common in people with scoliosis... your x-ray will look like you have wiplash) then your spine is going to be under all sorts of stress to try and deal with the extra weight that is caused by your head (which is heavy) leaning forward. You can try sleeping with a towel rolled up under your neck (or at least doing it for 20-30 minutes once or twice a day... you will want to ease into this). The other thing I learned is that you really need to do stretches and exercises every day to keep your spine feeling good. No one can fix your spine over night. In many cases your ribs and vertebra will be deformed, so they will never go "back into place" but you can prevent your curves from growing and keep the pain away. I do hot yoga 3-5 times a week and see a chiropractor once a month or so (not a clear institute chiro) and I feel better than ever. I hope this helps someone out there! If you have any questions feel free to email me.

[ecnw]

Wow, I had never even heard of this place before, it sounds like a place that in years will be haunted by disgruntled patients. Alright, maybe a little harsh, but on the haunting shows on tv it's the nedical places that are the eriest.
Anyway, parents out there, here's a question, how do your kids feel about the treatment? Do they feel like guinea pigs or are they comfortable with it?
As a kid I tried some of the exercises (yeah, didn't do that for long) and had to do the scolitron (ouch! nothing like electrical shocks to get a restful sleep).
Of course, my parents were doing what they thought they could to postpone surgery, which I am greatful for, it was a year or two extra before I had to have it. With my own kids, I went in talking to the doctor about what I wouldn't allow and would. If at anytime I felt it too experimental, forget it.
My kids will have to tell me in ten years what they felt worked and didn't, and if they pass it to their kids, make their own decisions about treatment.
Just before you try alternative methods, think twice, if you wouldn't have it done to yourself, don't do it to your kids.
Emily

[txmarinemom]

... The other thing I learned is that you really need to do stretches and exercises every day to keep your spine feeling good. No one can fix your spine over night. In many cases your ribs and vertebra will be deformed, so they will never go "back into place" but you can prevent your curves from growing and keep the pain away.

Absolutely, Jane ... pre-op OR post-op, stretching as your doctor allows is good. Flexibility is desirable (exercise if you can): It MAY prevent pain.

Subluxation is a BS chiro term. Yes, most of us have it, but it's from a *structural* curve. It is NOT the underlying root cause.

Who told you "you can prevent your curves from growing"?

You need to educate yourself *quite* a bit more. Your views about Clear support what most believe. Your OTHER views, I'll consider to be without basis ... unless you have proof.

(I'd LOVE to see it)

Pam

[Bish]

Re: Clear Institute

Hello Finitejane,
I know exactly what you are talking about. Woggon is a fruit loop, preying on those afflicted with this crappy problem. Where are you from Finitejane? I am from Canada as well. Abbotsford. B.C.
All the best, Bish

[curvycakes]

Wow!

I just skimmed over most of these posts, and I am very very interested. I started the Clear Institute program last summer with a local chiropractor. I was so excited, I think I even posted a thread about it. Everything was great for the first few months. I was doing some pretty unconventional treatments (head weights? shoulder weights? vibrating chair?) but they seemed to work for the most part. Also, I never really had pain or discomfort before this program (even though my main curve is about 50 degrees) and you can't really tell that I have a rib hump. I was a little sore after some of the treatments though, but it was one of those GOOD sores..like how you feel after you work out. I guess because we were working with the back muscle.
After a while though, I noticed that there were so many problems with this program. First of all, my scoliosis started to go back to its original curvature even though we had initially gotten great results. THEN, after weeks (since Woggon was SO busy) he told my chiropractor to assign completely different exercises--completely opposite. And one time, I nearly fainted on the vibrating chair. Despite all of this, I was still 100% committed because my chiropractor was great and understanding and I really believed in all of this since it dealt with the physiological reasoning behind it. Even though my chiropractor was new with the program, he was SO into it, always looking for new ways to fix things and even going to conferences about this. Ironically, I was the only patient that decided to stick with it. I had started with two other people who quit.
I can't even begin to tell you how great my chiropractor has been throughout all of this. We were both really dedicated--so much so, that we would stay at the office after hours and attempt to fix Woggon's mistakes in emails, letters, treatment plans, etc. It got to a point where Woggon was suddenly unreachable. It's like he couldn't deal with the problems that we were facing. I think the last thing we heard from him was that my scoliosis was "World-Class-Scoliosis" and it would take a lot of time and fixing to 'cure' it. That was it. Bye bye.
I understand that other people might not have had the same luck that I had with their chiropractor, thus having a miserable time with this program. But
I don't feel like this program was/is a completely waste. I do think that Woggon is a very unorganized man and bites off more than he can chew. I agree with his strategies and I didn't mind his unconventional practices, but it's obvious that this man needs to re-evaluate everything he's doing. I don't regret it though, I learned something new and did get some nice results during the program. I quit the program though, mostly for the reason that I was going away to college. Now and then I'll get readjusted by my chiropractor when I'm home for breaks/summer, but they're just normal adjustments.
Also, I read about different techniques when x-raying..that's very interesting to me, because I didn't experience that. I was always in the same position, breathing in or out, for all of my x-rays.
Anyway, I'd love to discuss more!