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Dr. Woggon - Clear Institute treatment

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  • #16
    Originally posted by livingit
    I will keep you posted of my results, and would like to hear from anyone who has undergone this treatment.
    please do so,

    why do you feel their method makes sense?

    gerbo

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    • #17
      Its working for me

      Originally posted by Sara
      I just got a reply from Dr. Woggon of the Clear Institute saying he could fix my curve in 1-2 weeks in Minnisota 30%-50%. Does anyone know anything about this doctor or Clear Institute? The treatment is rather expensive and seems very brief for the amount they claim they can fix.
      I use a chiropractor from the Clear Institute in Virginia. My curves have corrected from 17/18 upper/lower to 10/14. Not in 1-2 weeks though. It was about 6 weeks. Don't know what to think about the 1-2 week promise but it's working for me.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by livingit
        I was impressed by the theory and was shown before/after x-rays of results. I was also x-rayed. I have a typical S-curve (not sure the degrees), my head thrusts forward and my neck does not curve normally. I was x-rayed with weights on my head. The weights forced my head into a normal position to compensate for the weight, and the x-ray showed that they caused my head to sit back and my neck to curve normally.
        I'm still unconvinced that chiropractic treatment gives any more than minor, temporary correction. A chiro tried all the head-weighting and shoulder weighting treatments on me, even had me don the weights (heaviest he had) and took another spinal x-ray to see how much correction he thought was possible.

        Total correction possible, according to the x-rays? 0 and 0 degrees.
        28 degrees cervicothoracic, 34 degrees thoracolumbar, not diagnosed until age 34. Get yourself and your children screened early!

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        • #19
          Professor,

          I understand your skepticism. I learned of the treatment from reading the post by denverbackchic. I went to several chiropractors over the years with no success. I wasn’t really looking to correct the curve since it really isn’t that bad; I was hoping to get rid of the pain. There was one Osteopathic doctor that seamed to temporarily help my pain a little but it would just come right back. I’ve spent thousands on back care. I have two inversion tables (one is just from the waist down) that do give me temporary relief. I have yoga dvds and books. Most of it is out of desperation which leads a lot of us to anyone who has a plan.

          I’ve done the x-rays that you lean side to side. My curves do improve when I lean or bend forward. I’ve also been x-rayed with weights. My curves improved with the weights also. I think that was one of the ways that my chiropractor determined if the treatment would help. He was right. My curves improved after 6 weeks of exercises and adjustments. One morning I came in and I said that my back hurt after I slept on my stomach. He told me not to sleep on my stomach. That seemed to help also. All I can say is that to date, my pain has improved, and my latest x-rays have improved. The improvement is noticeable when looking at the before and after x-rays. I don’t know if it will last, but I’m hopeful. It probably doesn’t work for everyone since we are all different. My chiropractor said to hope for continued gradual improvement of a few degrees over the next few months and that such an improvement is a little unusual for 6 weeks. My visits have also reduced from three times a week to twice a week.

          Good luck to you and to everyone! I’ll keep posting my results.

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          • #20
            How similar is the clear institute method to the Schroth method?
            28 degrees cervicothoracic, 34 degrees thoracolumbar, not diagnosed until age 34. Get yourself and your children screened early!

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            • #21
              I’ve never heard of the Schroth method until now. Information on the Clear Institute can be found at www.clear-institute.com which I’m sure you already know. I couldn’t find any detailed information on the Schroth method. Is there a good web site for it? The clear institute and ASCO claims rely some on vibration. Not sure if that is different from Schroth.

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              • #22
                about Schroth

                Somebody already posted this reference somewhere:
                http://www.erikamaude.com/article.pdf

                There are some more:
                http://www.sosort.org/documents/tpdr100218.pdf

                There are pretty good books, but unfortunately only in German.

                And there are other discussions about Schroth, just search forum.
                But if you have any specific questions… we went to Schorth clinic (Germany) in February this year.

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                • #23
                  Schroth in USA

                  If you search on Schroth on the forum there should be posts about a Schroth clinic that opened this year in the US - I think it was Minnesota or Wisconsin.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tmom
                    And there are other discussions about Schroth, just search forum.
                    But if you have any specific questions… we went to Schorth clinic (Germany) in February this year.
                    From what little I've read on the subject, the Schroth method involves traction combined with exercises to strenthen the back and abdominal muscles, which is supposed to "hold" the correction achieved through traction, correct?

                    Do they make any claims as to whether or not this is effective in adult patients?
                    28 degrees cervicothoracic, 34 degrees thoracolumbar, not diagnosed until age 34. Get yourself and your children screened early!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Schroth Klinik/alternatives

                      I've read many of the English abstracts/studies in the National Library of Medicine
                      on-line:

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum


                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...d_ExternalLink

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum


                      Their treatment is primarily adolescents-though I've heard of adult trials.It consists of simultaneous: IN-PATIENT intensive rehab/physiotherapy, chiro and BRACING followed by at-home continuation. The published results are better than just bracing as seen here--HOWEVER--some patients STILL need surgery. In other words, their patients need surgery less often. They DO have a long follow-up of their results as opposed to say-Clear Institute which published a small study and short follow-up.


                      What gives(Schroth) credibility in my eyes is the continuing follow-up OVER MANY YEARS of their patients. Also they compare their results to untreated patients in another country-Ireland in one study. Their treatment is VERY intensive and time consuming and part of it is INPATIENT.

                      What burns me up about Clear Institute and other "promising" alternatives here is: small number of patients over a few weeks with "great" results and NO long term studies/comparisons using a scientific method.
                      Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
                      Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Karen Ocker
                        What burns me up about Clear Institute and other "promising" alternatives here is: small number of patients over a few weeks with "great" results and NO long term studies/comparisons using a scientific method.
                        This I concur with wholeheartedly. Yes, I've seen a few peer-reviewed studies regarding chiropractic and other "alternative" treatments for scoliosis, but seldom any follow-up or long-term studies. The only real long-term follow-up study I saw regarding chiropractic care showed that there was no measureable improvement maintained over the extended period.
                        28 degrees cervicothoracic, 34 degrees thoracolumbar, not diagnosed until age 34. Get yourself and your children screened early!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I've had good results with Dr. Woggon

                          Originally posted by Sara
                          I just got a reply from Dr. Woggon of the Clear Institute saying he could fix my curve in 1-2 weeks in Minnisota 30%-50%. Does anyone know anything about this doctor or Clear Institute? The treatment is rather expensive and seems very brief for the amount they claim they can fix.
                          I've been to Dr. Woggon's clinic in St. Cloud, MN for 3 separate week-long intensive treatment sessions. My initial X-ray showed a 66 degree cobb angle. After 4 days of intensive treatments (about 3 hours in the morning and 3 in the afternoon), my cobb angle as measured from x-ray was 43 degrees, a 35 percent improvement. I bought the scoliosis traction chair and faithfully did the various exercises. I returned for a followup visit 40 days later, and my gains from the previous visit had largely held -- my cobb angle measured 44 degrees before treatment commenced. After another 4 days of treatment my angle had improved to 40 degrees. This rather small improvement was disappointing, but to put things in perspective my Cobb angle was measured at 47 degrees as a teenager, and now I am 36 years old with a 40-degree angle. I was told that it is common to hit plateaus during treatment. I experienced a marked absence of back pain in the months subsequent to my first visit.

                          I did not return for another 10 months. I kept up with my exercises for a couple of months until the winter, at which time I stopped using the scoliosis traction chair which was installed in our concrete-floored garage (note if you get one it vibrates the whole house unless on a concrete slab). It was too cold in my garage to exercise, and it became easy to slack off on the other exercises as well. Various familiar back pains came back after many months of discontinued exercise, and eventually I went back to Dr. Woggon's clinic.

                          My curvature had reverted back to 60 degrees. After 4 days of treatment we got back to 41 degrees, and I have a renewed committment to keep up with the program (and get a space heater for my garage).

                          For someone of my advanced curvature, a 2-3 year course of treatment along with a daily exercise regime is what it is expected to take. Dr. woggon told me of one example of a reduction in curve from 60+ degrees to 13 degrees over 3 years. It is not a quick-fix, though the initial changes can be quite dramatic.

                          I build statistical software for a living and understand people's concerns about the lack of long term outcome studies. The problem is these methods have really only been used over the past 2-3 year. My 40 days of holding my improvements with exercise are encouraging but certainly not definitive. Ideally one would live near to a treatment center where more regular care and measurements can be done. Dr. Woggon does not want to work with people who don't do the exercises as it is a key component of rehabilitation.

                          In my last visit a woman in her mid-forties had a correction from 53 degrees down to 35 degrees over the same week that I was there. She was overjoyed. The reduction in rib hump for both her and me was also noticable in before and after photographs.

                          What I appreciate about this treatment is that it is quantitative -- you can measure your improvement or lack thereof. My biggest problem is not having a local chiropractor who has the training in these techniques. A week of treatment there costs $1500, plus travel expenses and some one-time expenses of buying equipment. I read some statistic that scoliosis patients live an average of 14 years less than the rest of the population. The costs seem to be a decent value if I can get back even some of those years.

                          I have tried many other treatment modalities for my scoliosis (including the watch and wait technique of my orthopaedic surgeon who just watched as my curve moved from 10 degrees to 47 degrees). There is only one other modality that has given me any postural improvement -- spinal touch, but that is a different story.

                          Check out the article showing before and after x-rays of scoliosis patients that were treated by Dr. Woggon and colleagues at:
                          http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/5/32

                          Dr. Woggon and his other colleagues at the Clear Insitute continually refine and improve their methods. The results they are getting in a week used to take six weeks for them. It is a lot of work, and takes ongoing committment and dedication, but your health is worth it.


                          Christophe

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                          • #28
                            Hi Christophe...

                            This is a really valuable post. Thanks. I hope you'll keep us updated.

                            It has long been my opinion that one can temporarily reduce one's curve through aggressive exercise, but that the curve(s) will return when the exercise ceases. So, if one is the type who will stick with a treatment for the rest of their life, it may make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, most of us are unwilling to spend the time. I personally do 3 PT exercises every day. They take me less than 5 minutes. If it were more time, I'm almost certain that I wouldn't stick with it in the long term.

                            Regards,
                            Linda
                            Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                            Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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                            • #29
                              Hi Christophe,

                              This is very exciting news for me, my daughter is scheduled to see Dr. Woggon in a few weeks. She's 14 now so my goal is to hopefully get her curves(which measure 33/52) down and keep them under control at least until she reaches maturity. I think a girl her age is still flexible and will benefit from this sort of treatment. Of course, I am concerned about keeping up with the regimen on a daily basis, that's going to be the tough part. We are seeing a chiro 3 times a week now who is willing to go along with any treatment that Dr. Woggon suggests. Dr. Woggon also told me approx. 2 years on the program. She is also wearing the Spinecor brace which I'm hoping will at least help hold any correction we get.

                              It may be, she does all this, reaches maturity and her curve still progresses or regresses to where it was originally, but not doing anything at all? That's not an option. I will at least know that I did the best that I could for her and surgery is always there, it's not going away. And if the plan works, that would be the best possible outcome of all.

                              By the way, any tips on how to keep a 14 year old motivated???
                              She's a really good, sweet girl, but still a teenager. I'll have to withhold food or something I guess.

                              Keep up the good work,
                              Sherie

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                              • #30
                                It has long been my opinion that one can temporarily reduce one's curve through aggressive exercise
                                I think (for what it is worth) that in the mature spine exercise works by improvement of posture, and as long as you are able to "hold yourself straighter" the spine will look better on x-ray, and I suppose, in effect, your scoliosis is less. Maintaining this straighter spine might have some benefit in reducing deterioration.

                                The key to improvement in the immature spine has to be the correction achieved by the brace, as long as worn most of the day/ night. It is tempting to think (hope) that there are forms of physical therapy/ exercise "out there" which can contribute to this, but any improvement achieved must be maintained by the brace for it to have any chance of becoming permanent.

                                My feeling is that not enough effort is made to achieve more substantial reductions of the curves through bracing and little seems to be known about how to build a brace which produces the maximum possible reduction. Brace building is considered an "art" rather than a skill

                                The following link http://skoliose-info-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=957 brings you to a table which I found on a German Scoliosis forum, and shows what kind of initial correction is being achieved there by a certain orthotist.(Rahmouni)

                                Note that where in younger teenagers 100% correction is often achieved, even in relative "older people" significant improvement seems possible.

                                Key question obviously are how difficult and painful these braces are, and how cosmetically acceptable, and wouldn't it be lovely to see some outcomes as well, to confirm that aggressive bracing achieves better results!

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