Gut microbiome alterations in children with AIS

[Dingo]

Despite the large differences in diet, contact with dirt, etc. the incidence of idiopathic sclerosis is nearly uniform around the world. This speaks to a very deep genetic reason that evolved early in human evolution and that an environmental trigger, if it exists, must also be uniform in distribution around the world.

We're all guessing so Pooka's bet that AIS is caused by heredity is as good as any other.

However we know that infections cause spinal deformity. Polio, Tuberculosis, Vertebral Osteomyelitis and no doubt many other infections that enter the vertebrae cause Scoliosis.
In addition Pulmonary Nontuberculous Mycobacterial Disease and Hyper-IgE syndrome are associated with Scoliosis.

We also know that in the Zebrafish model of Scoliosis the disease is caused by inflammation and can be treated with simple anti-inflammatory drugs.

Based on that information I have a high degree of confidence that AIS will share some similarities with what we already know. Idiopathic Scoliosis is probably caused by some type of inflammation, infection or some combination of the two. Maybe I'll be wrong but it's a safe bet because it's based on science that's already been proven.

As far as heredity is concerned it doesn't make sense to me that natural selection would favor a common, childhood spinal deformity. Children and young adults are supposed to be healthy. That's biology 101 stuff.

But of course nobody knows for sure so I guess we'll have to check back in 5 or 10 years and see who bet correctly.

[titaniumed]

Dingo, I have doubts on 5 or 10 years.....it took 5000 years to eradicate smallpox in India. 5000 years.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4078488/

And not all fires start from a match. (Which makes it worse) Multiple infections compound the problem.

Whats funny is that you can have a vaccine for a disease, and regardless of efforts, (India, 1997, 1998 1/4 Billion children) infections and viruses still exist. 43% of the scoli's discovered in India have polio.

I found ANOTHER centenarian (male) who when asked, stated what his secret is. He just passed yesterday at 112.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXyfCGDnuWs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Arvin_Overton



Ed

[Pooka1]

Maybe AIS is like identical twinning which also has a remarkably uniform rate. But in contrast to AIS, identical twinning is truly random where there is no increased incidence if the parent is an identical twin. Identical twinning has been hypothesized to be essentially a birth defect where the egg splits for some reason. Maybe AIS has a similar component like that. Maybe all IS is congenital.

AIS is said to follow very complex inheritance so something else has to be involved. Whatever that other something else is distributed fairly uniformly because there are not wild swings in the prevalence of AIS over the landscape.

AIS is almost certainly more than one thing. It is challenging enough to sort out other forms of scoliosis from AIS. But even after that is done, AIS may still have multiple etiologies. This is one of many reasons why the literature is probably not so good.

[titaniumed]

Maybe AIS is like identical twinning which also has a remarkably uniform rate. But in contrast to AIS, identical twinning is truly random where there is no increased incidence if the parent is an identical twin. Identical twinning has been hypothesized to be essentially a birth defect where the egg splits for some reason. Maybe AIS has a similar component like that. Maybe all IS is congenital.

AIS is said to follow very complex inheritance so something else has to be involved. Whatever that other something else is distributed fairly uniformly because there are not wild swings in the prevalence of AIS over the landscape.

AIS is almost certainly more than one thing. It is challenging enough to sort out other forms of scoliosis from AIS. But even after that is done, AIS may still have multiple etiologies. This is one of many reasons why the literature is probably not so good.

I believe we are all congenital.

Talking about random, my brother with Kleinfelter disease was due to Meosis (This is just a bad hand of cards)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis

There is something about "timing" that is misunderstood. Timing on progression, why curves move quickly, and why some curves hold. When curves start. If there is an underlying cause, why the differences in progression, curve magnitude etc? I believe this has a lot to do with the CNS. (My dad had a mild thoracic scoliosis and died from ALS.

The subject of longevity is also going to give clues. Why do we degenerate?

Richard Overton's diet of cigar's and whiskey doesn't seem like the healthiest thing....So, is it diet? Do I need to be buying cigars and whiskey?

(He was our oldest WW2 vet. I thought I would mention it. As a child in kindergarten, they had the Iwo Jima flag raising painted on the wall. As a 4 year old, I wondered what that was about, and it never left my mind. Someone painted WW2 scenes down a very long 300 foot hallway, they were floor to ceiling paintings.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin...ag_on_Iwo_Jima

He says don't give up. (I will try not to forget this)

Ed

[Pooka1]

There is something about "timing" that is misunderstood. Timing on progression, why curves move quickly, and why some curves hold. When curves start. If there is an underlying cause, why the differences in progression, curve magnitude etc? I believe this has a lot to do with the CNS. (My dad had a mild thoracic scoliosis and died from ALS.

AIS etiology has defied solution for all these years. Whatever it is that controls onset, progression rate, etc. is probably complex. If sufficiently complex, we may never solve the etiology which is why I think most research funds should go towards better treatments.

Suppose that AIS onset and progression are controlled partly by genes, partly by epigenetics, and partly by some ubiquitous environmental factor where environmental includes conditions in the womb. That is really complex. Now add in some trigger in the gut microbiome if true and we can confidently say it may never be solved before the sun blows up or the Andromeda galaxy crashes into our own.

I would love to know what the researchers in this field think about how close they think they are to solving the etiology of AIS.

[Dingo]

Dingo, I have doubts on 5 or 10 years.....it took 5000 years to eradicate smallpox in India. 5000 years.

For the first time I'm hopeful because of the Zebrafish study.

If that study is confirmed it would be a major leap forward in the understanding of Scoliosis.

Scientists have been studying inflammation's relationship to common diseases for decades. They know a lot about it.

[Dingo]

25-year study shows that incidence of type 1 diabetes is increasing by more than 3 percent per year in Europe

New research published in Diabetologia (the journal of the European Association for the Study of Diabetes [EASD]) shows that new cases of type 1 diabetes are rising by 3.4% per year across Europe. If this trend continues, incidence would double in the next 20 years. The study is coordinated by Professor Chris Patterson, Centre for Public Health, Queen's University Belfast, UK.

I doubt long term studies like this are being done for Scoliosis. Nobody knows if the rate is rising, flat or falling.

If Scoliosis is caused by harmful inflammation I can pretty much guarantee the rate is going up, just like Diabetes, Autism and so many others.

Pollution, processed sugary food, sedentary lifestyles, obesity, etc. etc. are without a doubt increasing inflammation and making more people sick every year.

[titaniumed]

For the first time I'm hopeful because of the Zebrafish study.

If that study is confirmed it would be a major leap forward in the understanding of Scoliosis.

Scientists have been studying inflammation's relationship to common diseases for decades. They know a lot about it.

I am also hopeful, but when you wait a long time, its hard to get overly excited on "a cure". Many here have waited for surgery like myself, back when the pedicle screw came out in 1983 it was exciting, but we had to wait for modern systems to become mainstream. Just that ended up being a 25 year wait for me.

I had a good friend die from cancer (at age 10) back in 1968 and saw all the cancer drives through the years. Jerry Lewis was doing his thing with MDA, and yes all of this helps some, but answers or cures don't happen in a timely manner.

FDR started the March of Dimes for Polio in 1938, and the polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. 17 years is a miracle on something like that! Just incredible! Its a shame that he never knew....

There sure is a lot of waiting that happens with scoliosis (and various diseases)

Ed

[Dingo]

I am also hopeful, but when you wait a long time, its hard to get overly excited on "a cure". Many here have waited for surgery like myself, back when the pedicle screw came out in 1983 it was exciting, but we had to wait for modern systems to become mainstream. Just that ended up being a 25 year wait for me.

I had a good friend die from cancer (at age 10) back in 1968 and saw all the cancer drives through the years. Jerry Lewis was doing his thing with MDA, and yes all of this helps some, but answers or cures don't happen in a timely manner.

FDR started the March of Dimes for Polio in 1938, and the polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. 17 years is a miracle on something like that! Just incredible! Its a shame that he never knew....

There sure is a lot of waiting that happens with scoliosis (and various diseases)

Ed

Yeah this stuff tends to take forever. I think FDA approval typically takes 10 years. So if tomorrow scientists confirmed that Scoliosis was caused by inflammation and a specific type of anti-inflammatory could stop progression it would likely be a decade before treatment became mainstream.

The good thing about inflammation is that there are many, natural scientifically proven ways to lower it.
Simply eating non-processed foods with plenty of daily physical activity lowers inflammation quite a bit.

In adults calorie restriction massively lowers inflammation. An amazing BBC program on that here. The 101 year old marathoner at the beginning is jaw dropping!
Eat, Fast & Live Longer

[titaniumed]

In adults calorie restriction massively lowers inflammation. An amazing BBC program on that here. The 101 year old marathoner at the beginning is jaw dropping!
Eat, Fast & Live Longer

Dingo, that is an interesting video, thanks for posting!

I noticed that they did fast for epilepsy in Ancient Greece, which was thousands of years before Hippocrates. I didn't think much of anything medical happened "thousands" of years BC. What did they eat, dinosaur? (smiley face) Many modern veggies were engineered in England during the Elizabethan era. 1580 AD (The history of food is an interesting subject matter)

I have never fasted. I just don't know how that would go, but maybe some day I will try. It all seems to make sense as far as brain cell re-generation is concerned.

There have been studies on IGF-1 links to scoliosis. But it seems there is nothing substantial or significant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insuli...rowth_factor_1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27554350

Ed

[Pooka1]

What did they eat, dinosaur? (smiley face)

Had to giggle when I read that. You are such a card, Ed!

[titaniumed]

We are talking so far back, all I can think of is the Flintstones diet. (examples attached below)

With the quantity they ate, no wonder they had to fast.

[Pooka1]

The Flintstones. Now there is a blast from the past, no pun intended. That's a part of my childhood. :-)

Ed I wanted to see your bending and twisting photos again but he link just goes to the thread which has the link that goes to thee thread, etc. It's turtles all the way down. How can I see the photos? Am I missing something?

[titaniumed]

Sharon

I added some of the re-take photos from Sept 8, 2018 to the signature in the original thread. I hope this helps

The link in my signature works.

After decades on computers, I will admit that I am quite lazy about computing these days....sorry about that.

I am officially retired now!

Ed

[Pooka1]

CONGRATULATIONS on your retirement, Ed!!! That's wonderful!

Those photos showing your extensive ROM are probably one of the single most valuable contributions to this forum in my opinion.