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Thread: A recent Schroth study

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    There have been plenty of studies showing that Schroth works in the short term. There hasn't, however, ever been a long-term follow-up study. If you're the type of person who can spend a significant amount of time on an exercise program for the rest of your life, I think Schroth is probably an excellent choice.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    There have been plenty of studies showing that Schroth works in the short term. There hasn't, however, ever been a long-term follow-up study. If you're the type of person who can spend a significant amount of time on an exercise program for the rest of your life, I think Schroth is probably an excellent choice.
    I just happened upon this old thread.

    Linda, I made a thread asking whether physical therapy could ever reduce scoliosis curves and you said no. I said I thought I had experienced it, and you and someone else, I think it was Pooka1, talked me out of it, assured me that there was another explanation for my hips looking straighter after a few weeks of certain PT exercises.

    Yet you agree here that Schroth has some effect on curve reduction. Is not Schroth a kind of physical therapy and aren't you contradicting youurself?

    Also, question about the article quoted:

    "The Cobb (-2.53; P=0.003) and rotation angles (-4.23; P=0.000) significantly decreased, which indicated an improvement in the clinic exercise group compared to the other groups. The gibbosity (-68.66mm; P=0.000) and waist asymmetry improved only in the clinic exercise group,"

    Are they saying the Cobb angles decreased by an average of 2.53 degrees and the rotation angle by 4.23 in their study? These may be "significant" as far as the scientists are concerned but they are not really large and seem inconsequential.

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    Is it that Schroth is only for young people and they have different (better) results than an adult would?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    I just happened upon this old thread.

    Linda, I made a thread asking whether physical therapy could ever reduce scoliosis curves and you said no. I said I thought I had experienced it, and you and someone else, I think it was Pooka1, talked me out of it, assured me that there was another explanation for my hips looking straighter after a few weeks of certain PT exercises.
    Hi. I don't recall the exchange but I doubt I doubted your impression of how your hips looked straighter after PT. PT can have some improvement mainly using muscle to pull some straightness without changing the spine but it is dependent on doing it the rest of your life. There is no evidence it can permanently change your skeleton in this context.

    Yet you agree here that Schroth has some effect on curve reduction. Is not Schroth a kind of physical therapy and aren't you contradicting yourself?
    When people ask about curve reduction they mean permanent. There is no evidence that PT has an effect on that.

    And yes, Schroth is a type of PT invented by a lay person. Her orthopedic surgeon grandson tried for about 10 years with about 30,000 patents to show it can be used in kids to avoid surgery. He gave up, admitted defeat, and now only does bracing which itself has poor evidence of avoiding surgery for life.

    In re Schroth for adults, that I think (hope) is only touted for pain control. They may also be claiming it can stop progression but I don't think there is any evidence for that.

    Also, question about the article quoted:

    "The Cobb (-2.53; P=0.003) and rotation angles (-4.23; P=0.000) significantly decreased, which indicated an improvement in the clinic exercise group compared to the other groups. The gibbosity (-68.66mm; P=0.000) and waist asymmetry improved only in the clinic exercise group,"

    Are they saying the Cobb angles decreased by an average of 2.53 degrees and the rotation angle by 4.23 in their study? These may be "significant" as far as the scientists are concerned but they are not really large and seem inconsequential.
    Yes that Cobb decrease is within the noise of the measurement and so is meaningless. This also is yet another instance of the misuse/misinterpretation of the p stat and contributes to why a majority of the published research is false.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    Is it that Schroth is only for young people and they have different (better) results than an adult would?
    Schroth does NOT have any results for anyone and the proof of that is the LACK of evidence for efficacy despite having years and tens of thousands of patients to prove it works. At some point, the lack of evidence starts adding up.

    Adding insult to injury, I have heard Schroth is expensive.

    If/when a conservative treatment prevents surgery or progression or anything besides pain, we will all know about it by what wins the Nobel. Until then, it's all noise.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    When people ask about curve reduction they mean permanent. There is no evidence that PT has an effect on that.

    And yes, Schroth is a type of PT invented by a lay person. Her orthopedic surgeon grandson tried for about 10 years with about 30,000 patents to show it can be used in kids to avoid surgery. He gave up, admitted defeat, and now only does bracing which itself has poor evidence of avoiding surgery for life.

    In re Schroth for adults, that I think (hope) is only touted for pain control. They may also be claiming it can stop progression but I don't think there is any evidence for that.



    Yes that Cobb decrease is within the noise of the measurement and so is meaningless. This also is yet another instance of the misuse/misinterpretation of the p stat and contributes to why a majority of the published research is false.
    BINGO. 100% agree.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
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    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Hi. I don't recall the exchange but I doubt I doubted your impression of how your hips looked straighter after PT. PT can have some improvement mainly using muscle to pull some straightness without changing the spine but it is dependent on doing it the rest of your life. There is no evidence it can permanently change your skeleton in this context.



    When people ask about curve reduction they mean permanent. There is no evidence that PT has an effect on that.

    And yes, Schroth is a type of PT invented by a lay person. Her orthopedic surgeon grandson tried for about 10 years with about 30,000 patents to show it can be used in kids to avoid surgery. He gave up, admitted defeat, and now only does bracing which itself has poor evidence of avoiding surgery for life.

    In re Schroth for adults, that I think (hope) is only touted for pain control. They may also be claiming it can stop progression but I don't think there is any evidence for that.



    Yes that Cobb decrease is within the noise of the measurement and so is meaningless. This also is yet another instance of the misuse/misinterpretation of the p stat and contributes to why a majority of the published research is false.
    No, I never expected curve reduction from PT to be permanent. I realized it was just the strengthened muscles on one side working against the curving motion of my spine, pulling it straighter, but that the spine was always fighting back.

    I knew if I stopped doing the exercises that things would revert to the way they were, my spine would get its way again. Which it did, with a vengeance. Things didn't just revert to the way they were, the spine was curving even faster as if to make up for the time it wasn't allowed to curve.

    I thought you and Linda were denying that I even observed any effect (straighter hips), forgive me if I misunderstood. I can't even find that thread easily anymore. I've been away from here for a while and I got a new computer, and this site won't show me any of my old posts anymore. It doesn't quite recognize me, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Schroth does NOT have any results for anyone and the proof of that is the LACK of evidence for efficacy despite having years and tens of thousands of patients to prove it works. At some point, the lack of evidence starts adding up.

    Adding insult to injury, I have heard Schroth is expensive.

    If/when a conservative treatment prevents surgery or progression or anything besides pain, we will all know about it by what wins the Nobel. Until then, it's all noise.
    The thing is, I was arguing this with someone on another scoliosis site, and I took your side, and I went away with my tail between my legs. The person I was engaging triumphantly posted some links and it looks like some reputable medical institutions are now integrating Schroth exercises into their scoliosis treatment. Mayo Clinic is one, Boston Children's Hospital was another, and there is a third that I forget. All top notch medical institutions with great reputations for scoliosis treatment.

    i don't think any of these institutions are using Schroth as their sole treatment and I get the feeling it's a bit experimental, that they want to see if does any good as an initial treatment to halt progression. Especially in very young people. This practice seems very recent, about 3 years old.

    My opponent conceded that Schroth exercises would likely have to be done for the rest of one's life to keep the curvature arrested. So I won some points saying I didn't think many people at all were capable of doing this, making it a bad treatment to depend on. But I was startled to see any acceptance by part of the medical community. You can google it or go to their sites and search for "Schroth".

    Well, the medical community accepts chiropractors to some degree, too. Maybe because it knows patients aren't going to stop seeing chiropractors and they might as well make peace with this. And surgery is very unpopular, some scoliosis sufferers will try any treatment to avoid it.
    Last edited by Tina_R; 09-28-2021 at 10:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    No, I never expected curve reduction from PT to be permanent. I realized it was just the strengthened muscles on one side working against the curving motion of my spine, pulling it straighter, but that the spine was always fighting back.

    I knew if I stopped doing the exercises that things would revert to the way they were, my spine would get its way again. Which it did, with a vengeance. Things didn't just revert to the way they were, the spine was curving even faster as if to make up for the time it wasn't allowed to curve.

    I thought you and Linda were denying that I even observed any effect (straighter hips), forgive me if I misunderstood. I can't even find that thread easily anymore. I've been away from here for a while and I got a new computer, and this site won't show me any of my old posts anymore. It doesn't quite recognize me, I guess.
    I apologize for speaking for you on the point of needing PT for life. I do think that others think that, though.

    I hope I have never denied a subjective observation from somebody. All such observations are true by definition. Your observations are certainly also objectively true because PT can achieve some improvement. But it is an open question whether the subjective observations of others are also objectively true. Scoliosis is a very heart-wrenching condition that challenges objectivity.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    The thing is, I was arguing this with someone on another scoliosis site, and I took your side, and I went away with my tail between my legs. The person I was engaging triumphantly posted some links and it looks like some reputable medical institutions are now integrating Schroth exercises into their scoliosis treatment. Mayo Clinic is one, Boston Children's Hospital was another, and there is a third that I forget. All top notch medical institutions with great reputations for scoliosis treatment.

    i don't think any of these institutions are using Schroth as their sole treatment and I get the feeling it's a bit experimental, that they want to see if does any good as an initial treatment to halt progression. Especially in very young people. This practice seems very recent, about 3 years old.

    My opponent conceded that Schroth exercises would likely have to be done for the rest of one's life to keep the curvature arrested. So I won some points saying I didn't think many people at all were capable of doing this, making it a bad treatment to depend on. But I was startled to see any acceptance by part of the medical community. You can google it or go to their sites and search for "Schroth".

    Well, the medical community accepts chiropractors to some degree, too. Maybe because it knows patients aren't going to stop seeing chiropractors and they might as well make peace with this. And surgery is very unpopular, some scoliosis sufferers will try any treatment to avoid it.
    You make some great points. I completely agree with you, Tina.

    Doctors on Doctor Radio mention Schroth from time to time and I think it is ignorant. Schroth has been studied for decades on the issue of halting progression in growing kids. There is no convincing evidence from all those tens of thousands of patients. I am always tempted to call in or write in telling them about the mountain of negative evidence at this point for Schroth. I am embarrassed for them. I think I will do that next time.

    Schroth is sitting next to chiro on the "no science" bench.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I apologize for speaking for you on the point of needing PT for life. I do think that others think that, though.

    I hope I have never denied a subjective observation from somebody. All such observations are true by definition. Your observations are certainly also objectively true because PT can achieve some improvement. But it is an open question whether the subjective observations of others are also objectively true. Scoliosis is a very heart-wrenching condition that challenges objectivity.
    No apologies needed, and you can always say to me what you honestly think. You and Linda were not denying that my hips looked more aligned, only questioning what was really going on there. If I find the thread I'll post the link in this thread. My past history on this site seems to have been wiped out.

    You have two kids for whom you felt only surgery would do, and I'm sure that decision wasn't easily made with the risks involved. So I know you are sincere in your skepticism about alternative therapies and you should say what you think. I have less knowledge than you but I can see that people become attracted by these alternative therapies because they fear surgery and they are easy marks.

    On the other hand when Mayo Clinic is suddenly attaching credibility to something, maybe we have to take another look at it, keep an open mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    No apologies needed, and you can always say to me what you honestly think. You and Linda were not denying that my hips looked more aligned, only questioning what was really going on there. If I find the thread I'll post the link in this thread. My past history on this site seems to have been wiped out.

    You have two kids for whom you felt only surgery would do, and I'm sure that decision wasn't easily made with the risks involved. So I know you are sincere in your skepticism about alternative therapies and you should say what you think. I have less knowledge than you but I can see that people become attracted by these alternative therapies because they fear surgery and they are easy marks.

    On the other hand when Mayo Clinic is suddenly attaching credibility to something, maybe we have to take another look at it, keep an open mind.
    Surgery for my kids was not my choice. I think a court would have stepped in had I refused it for them. There is a medical consensus on fusion for large, progressing T curves in AIS. My role was to access the expert opinion. I had no choice. And the surgeries saved my daughters' lives.

    The fact of medical consensus for surgery in the case of my daughters is not related to my skepticism of alternative therapies. My skepticism of alt med is related to the lack of evidence of efficacy. Had there been evidence I would have tried that with my daughters.

    Mayo is probably very careful and nuanced about how they talk about things like Schroth. I certainly hope they are not saying there is evidence of efficacy. That would be false.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    My past history on this site seems to have been wiped out.
    Nope. As far as I know, only Joe, myself, and the person who posts, are able to remove previous posts. I definitely didn't do that, and I can't imagine Joe would, as he never gets involved without consulting me first.

    To see all of your posts, click on your name in one of your current posts, then select View Forum Posts. It looks like you have 313 total posts.

    I agree that some reputable spine centers have begun offering Schroth treatment. We can't know why, but I'd bet it's because there has been some patient demand for it. I actually think this is a good thing. If these reputable centers see patients getting some benefit from the program, they'll continue and it will benefit the patient community. It will also hopefully moderate the pricing. If it turns out that that they don't see any benefit, they'll drop the program. Let's wait and see.

    --Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Surgery for my kids was not my choice. I think a court would have stepped in had I refused it for them. There is a medical consensus on fusion for large, progressing T curves in AIS. My role was to access the expert opinion. I had no choice. And the surgeries saved my daughters' lives.

    The fact of medical consensus for surgery in the case of my daughters is not related to my skepticism of alternative therapies. My skepticism of alt med is related to the lack of evidence of efficacy. Had there been evidence I would have tried that with my daughters.

    Mayo is probably very careful and nuanced about how they talk about things like Schroth. I certainly hope they are not saying there is evidence of efficacy. That would be false.
    I did not realize you had no choice. Do you live in the U.S.? If you do, what happens to parents who can't afford the surgery when their kids need it that badly, is it considered an emergency situation that gets paid for by the government? If you live in Canada or wherever else there is free health care, I guess I have my answer.

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