Has anyone heard of...?

[rohrer01]

I know we are off topic but I work at a hospital and about 2 years ago they had to let a new mother die that needed blood after a major hemorrhage after giving birth. Very hard on all medical personnel. But for religious reasons that was her and her family's decision. And by law it has to be respected.It was hard on every one that knew.
Sorry but we'll turn this back to the thread that was started.

Jackie, I asked respectfully that religion NOT be discussed here. Please delete your statement. This is WAY too off topic and stirs up too much controversial feelings in people. The mother died of the hemorrhage, not from refusing blood. No guarantee blood would have saved her if the hemorrhage was that bad and out of control. The first rule is STOP the bleeding. Apperently, that wasn't done. They could have given her a hysterectomy.

[Pooka1]

Rohrer, the point was that the mother might have been saved after the hemorrhage if she got the transfusion. Without the transfusion, she didn't stand a chance. They probably stopped the bleeding as soon as possible but she still needed a transfusion.

Tying a surgeon's hands like that is unfair to the surgeon and to the person's family.

All of this is speculation and certainly the statements about Prince are speculation until they are verified. But if it turns out that he refused surgery because they wouldn't violate their Hippocratic oath and he then got addicted to pain killers and died from an overdose, then it is reasonable to suggest he might not be dead if he wasn't an JW. That just follows inescapably and logically if these statements are true. There is no problem stating this.

In fact it is essential that this become known if true.

[rohrer01]

I'm not going to keep arguing religion. In the case of the mother, she died of a hemorrhage NOT from refusing a blood transfusion. There are things that can be done to stop bleeding. If they just let her lay there and bleed to death, then THEY are the ones at fault for not stopping the bleeding. I know that the uterus can bleed out fast. But it can be packed and an abdomen can be opened and uterine blood vessels can be clamped to stop the bleeding. She probably had a doctor that "felt" his/her hands were tied and with such a feeling failed to do the obvious and get that uterus out of there. The FIRST rule in first aid is to stop the bleeding. The human body can tolerate very low levels of hemoglobin if the volume is kept up. PACK that uterus and get her to the OR.

Second, do you know the circumstances of Prince's death? You can't flagrantly say his religion killed him because of the choices he made. If he accidentally OD'ed, that has nothing to do with his conviction not to take blood. Whether he chose not undergo an elective medical procedure for reasons that YOU don't know, how can you make the claim that his religion killed him? You can't blame JWs for Prince dying. Period.

What if you choose TO take blood and contract a viral or bacterial infection and die? Who's going to go after YOUR beliefs TO take blood? Why isn't that criticized? I had a friend that DIED from a blood transfusion. Should I bash her family and her belief system because she died, or show compassion? Should I bash everyone whose had a fatal reaction from mislabeled or mishandled blood? It's a risk you take. Should I bash everyone here that has possibly picked up Hepatitis or HIV or any other sickness for their belief that blood saved them or was the only way to get them through surgery, or should I show them compassion? It goes both ways.
Transfusion is a medical procedure. Not everyone wants that procedure, JW or not. THIS is why we don't bring up religion on the forum. YOU brought this into my thread. I am NOT happy with you for it. There was NO reason to derail a perfectly legitimate topic and debate whether or not to administer blood.

There is a whole field of bloodless medicine. Whether you like JWs or not, you can thank THEIR belief system for making YOUR surgeries safer.

I challenge you to look up some studies to show me that the mortality rate is lower among those that take blood vs those that do not. You can PM it to me or start another thread. This is NOT what this thread is about. This needs to stop NOW.

[rohrer01]

Tying a surgeon's hands like that is unfair to the surgeon and to the person's family.

If a doctor is careful, capable, and feels confident that he/she can do a procedure, then that doctor won't feel like their hands are tied. They will have planned for the what-ifs. If the doctor feels tied, then that is not a qualified doctor to do the procedure.

[LindaRacine]

Thank you, Linda. This actually makes sense. He's been on his own practicing for eight years. That doesn't mean he's only been a doctor for eight years, which I knew. I would like to think that he was involved in the whole study and just didn't jump in, as I doubt other doctors would want to share credit with a newbie. He may have been in the OR or he may have been involved in the imaging part, or both. Either way, this puts me more at ease that he knows a lot more about this issue than even some of the old timers. I can't imagine more than two cervicals being fused. I just need to hold my head upright.

I have thought about the number of adults having surgery and the revision rate. It seems like almost 100% on this forum, sadly. I don't want to spend the rest of my life having surgery after surgery. I've had my fair share already.

I will look at the articles you found when I have some time to really look at them. I don't even know if I'll get to see this guy or if this will go anywhere. It might all be a bust as it seems it has been my whole life. It's hard to live your whole life with a big surgery hanging over your head. That's what it's been for me. If only I'd had it done as a teenager. The old Harrington technology would have prevented all of this as only about 4 - 6 vertebrae would have been involved vs 15 or more. Grrr...

Rohrer01

I think he was probably a resident or fellow when he worked on the study. Students, residents, and fellows are frequently the ones who do most of the work on studies. In the university setting, attendings often don't have the time to do all the chart reviews, analysis, and writing to put together a manuscript.

[LindaRacine]

Wow, this thread got totally derailed.

Rohrer, I'll leave it up to you. If you'd like, I can remove everything that doesn't involve the OP.

[titaniumed]

It sure did, but it is very interesting....Its my fault, I should have started a new thread....

Rohrer, it would be a shame if you couldn’t meet with this doc....I think it would be worth the trip. I wouldn’t worry about 8 years.....or pedicle screw breach studies, or thinking that all of us have repeated surgeries, that’s not the case.

I didn’t terminate from 100Mg, I was cutting Percoset and reduced to half for 4 days, then quit....I didn’t jump off the cliff, I ran down the stairs.

Are you ok driving to Mayo?

Ed

[rohrer01]

I think he was probably a resident or fellow when he worked on the study. Students, residents, and fellows are frequently the ones who do most of the work on studies. In the university setting, attendings often don't have the time to do all the chart reviews, analysis, and writing to put together a manuscript.

Believe me, I am aware that the students do a lion's share in the actual work in a study or a published experiment. I did a ton of work as an undergrad. With that said, if she published the paper my name would not be on it as a co-author. The higher ups are the brains behind what the grunts do. They get their names on the papers because it was their ideas and they oversee things. That's why I said he had to be involved in it from the beginning to get his name as co-author. Whatever the case, I'm sure he knows his stuff quite well when it comes to putting pedicle screws into tiny pedicles that can't be visualized in open surgery. The wings (I can't tax my brain right now as to what they are actually called) on those T1 and T2s are huge.

[rohrer01]

It sure did, but it is very interesting....Its my fault, I should have started a new thread....

Rohrer, it would be a shame if you couldn’t meet with this doc....I think it would be worth the trip. I wouldn’t worry about 8 years.....or pedicle screw breach studies, or thinking that all of us have repeated surgeries, that’s not the case.

I didn’t terminate from 100Mg, I was cutting Percoset and reduced to half for 4 days, then quit....I didn’t jump off the cliff, I ran down the stairs.

Are you ok driving to Mayo?

Ed

Ed,
First of all you didn't derail this thread. You didn't bring up religion, especially a particular one. Sharon did that. I'm not upset with you. You know that I take narcotics and you shared your concern of opiate dependence using the recent death of a famous person as an example. You know that I am at risk and I appreciate the concern because it's a HUGE concern for me, too. Yes, I ran down those stairs several times. I had to get rid of a 50mcg patch and go to 25mcg. That was HARD even with Percocet every three hours one day, every four hours the next day, a half every three hours the next day, to a half every four hours for the last day to nothing. I was still sweating and running to the bathroom for a good two weeks after the step down. My pain was better and I had lost so much weight I had nothing to wear. The 50mcg fentanyl was the biggest set of stairs that I've run down thus far. Getting back to 40mg of oxy was easy since my post surgical pain didn't last that long. I take that back. Shoulder PT was a BEAR! It was worse than the injury at first. Once done, it's like I never had it. I am hypermobile in that shoulder again to the chagrin of my doctor because I still have a torn ligament off of the humerus that holds my arm in. So I'm prone to dislocate. But I have NO pain in that shoulder what-so-ever.

Mayo is only a two hour drive for me and hubby will be going with me. Going to Madison, WI to see Dr. Tribus is also a two hour drive. I live almost exactly the same distance from both...to the mile. LOL

I talked to hubby about your offer to at least be a visitor at some point if I have surgery. I've talked to him about your kindness before, and the fact that you visited one of the ladies and posted photos with her and her hubby. I'm pretty sure you're not a serial killer, lol. So, IF the time ever comes I'll PM you. I accidentally deleted your e-mail if you want to send it over again.

Take Care,
Rohrer01

[rohrer01]

Wow, this thread got totally derailed.

Rohrer, I'll leave it up to you. If you'd like, I can remove everything that doesn't involve the OP.

I think I stood my ground pretty well. THIS is a PRIME example of why religion or at least particular religions should NOT be discussed. There are always going to be haters. I think it's sad that the one group is singled out. Atheism/agnosticism is also a recognized group or "non-religion" in the State of Wisconsin. It was just passed. So atheism/agnosticism should not be discussed, either. What's fair is fair. If it has to do with back deformities and procedures that go along with it, it should be allowed. There was NO reason why blood transfusions related to a particular religion or any religion for that matter should have been brought up during this discussion.

Abortion is also a medical procedure. Some people feel it's murder and some don't, even among Christians and other faiths. Whatever a person believes about this procedure, it also comes with risks. Some women do become infertile and sometimes die from it, not to mention some premature babies do survive it, often with devastating lifelong consequences. So to choose or not to choose to have an abortion comes with a price tag because lives are involved and there are real risks. It's also a very controversial subject. I've done extensive research on abortion and bloodless medicine over the years during my studies).

Linda, I'll throw it back at you and leave it up to you. If you feel it has any value what-so-ever either medically or "what not to do" it's okay if it stays. If not, you can get rid of it. If there are ANY more comments past this one. Get rid of them all, please.

Thanks,
Rohrer01

[titaniumed]

Rohrer, You mean “fused” serial killer.....Not all male scoliosis posters are fused serial killers. (smiley face) The world is full of good people, it really is.

2 Hours is not bad, that’s doable......and worth it for Mayo especially is you have added neuro parameters. I think it would be nice to at least know if you have the green light. It did take a long time to actually diagnose ALS with my father......They do tests and think for a long time. Nothing happened quickly.....

I know that you are experienced with meds, and I do post in general quite a bit for newbie readers. Medication education is something that many just ignore....hopefully, follow doctors orders, but it’s a whole lot more than that.....Fine print is there for a reason, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Some of the current articles and videos....
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/14/politi...emore-opioids/

Oxy and Fentanyl now have black box warnings
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/12/health...ction-history/

Bad choices for chronic pain and back pain. (I didn’t say this, I’m not a doctor)
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/11/health...atient-advice/

I can start a new thread on the medication education topic, just let me know.

Your surgical decisions will happen in time after more consultation.....

titaniumed@hotmail.com

Ed

[LindaRacine]

Believe me, I am aware that the students do a lion's share in the actual work in a study or a published experiment. I did a ton of work as an undergrad. With that said, if she published the paper my name would not be on it as a co-author. The higher ups are the brains behind what the grunts do. They get their names on the papers because it was their ideas and they oversee things. That's why I said he had to be involved in it from the beginning to get his name as co-author. Whatever the case, I'm sure he knows his stuff quite well when it comes to putting pedicle screws into tiny pedicles that can't be visualized in open surgery. The wings (I can't tax my brain right now as to what they are actually called) on those T1 and T2s are huge.

It's a retrospective review, so it's entirely possible he wasn't present during any of the surgeries. The surgeries were performed between October 2002 and October 2008. I think he got his MD in 2004.

I am not debating the issue because I want to turn you away from him. I think he's probably very qualified. I just didn't want anyone thinking that just because someone's name is on a publication means that they've done a lot of that particular procedure.

--Linda

[rohrer01]

I don't mind a thread taking a turn to a relevant topic. Conversations evolve, so you don't need to start a new thread.

I'm sure that if anyone has feedback on this doctor they will chime in regardless of where this conversation has evolved to.

My opinion on the use of opiates is that the patient be tried on other medications first and then screened for addictive behaviors and be educated on the long term effects that the drug can cause on the body. The doctor should also watch and see if the patient habitually request more medication.

OxyContin was a good choice for me at one point when my body could no longer tolerate NSAIDs because of heart and GI issues. But they changed the formula and put it in a polymer base for the slow delivery of the drug TO PROTECT DRUG ADDICTS BUYING IT OFF THE STREET MARKET. My body just passed the pill whole and undissolved and I immediately went into chemical withdrawal because the drug was not there. Some might argue that there is no difference between chemical dependency and addiction. I talked with my doctor at length about this and there is a HUGE difference. I'm sorry, but the people who actually NEED these medications and use them responsibly should NOT have to pay the price of not getting their effective meds so that people doing dope on the streets won't die. Those people will find a way to get something and end up dying regardless. I say this with a grain of salt because I have a son with a drug problem and my brother died at 25 from illegal drug related issues. These drug addicts turned to smoking incense (K2), which is totally legal to by and can be very lethal. They WILL find something to get a high.

Chemical dependency is when the body gets used to the presence of the drug and goes into withdrawal without it. There is no drug seeking behavior. My doctor has watched me struggle with the fear of addiction for years. He's seen me get clean several times when I felt better and no longer needed narcotics. He prescribes me an amount for one month that I have NEVER used in one month. I guess it's his way of seeing what I will do? Needless to say, I am not using just meds. I go through grueling sessions of needle therapy (trigger point) that are not just shots but moving the needle around to break up spasms. I do this every two weeks to keep my pain levels down. I get Botox in the neck every three months and it hurts like HELLO! It's brought me to sobbing tears more than once. I get epidurals, SI joint injections and am now considering nerve ablation. IF I were an addict, I would demand more opiates and forego the other treatments. I had a friend who is a recovered alcoholic. She forewent all of the treatments offered her for her opiates. She is an addict. But her pain is real. She waited so long that the other treatments were no longer an option and now they have to treat her. There was a time when I was with her that she actually told me to keep an eye on her because she cut her OxyContin in half, something she KNEW she wasn't supposed to do. But it gave her a high...the sign of an addict.

Addiction is where BEHAVIORS change in the patient so as to seek out more of the drug or they persistently request it when there is no longer a medical need for the drug BECAUSE they don't want to go through the withdrawal process (which can be done slowly and relatively easily compared to what Ed and I have done). They want more for the euphoric effects. They forego alternative treatments, such as my friend I just mentioned.

A chemically dependent person will not act this way. They will try any reasonable alternative treatment so that they can get off the narcotics. Then they will deal with the withdrawal.

There are serious risks to the chronic use of NSAIDs as well, which people overlook. Look on every bottle of your favorite NSAID and they will all have heart attack warnings on them. Yes, they increase the heart rate and in some people, like myself, that were/are unaware they have a heart condition can actually die. They also do damage to the kidneys. Now look at long term acetaminophen use (the safe drug, right?). I was told by my son's pediatric psychiatrist that the most dangerous drug on the market is acetaminophen. Why? In a nutshell, liver failure. Kids think it's a safe drug, so when they act out in a "suicidal" attempt for attention for their depression or other legitimate mental illness, they choose acetaminophen because they think it's safe and won't really kill them. They either DO die or end up on the liver transplant list. Acetaminophen combined with alcohol will cause cirrhosis of the liver rather quickly.

So we are left asking ourselves, what is a safe course for chronic pain management? There isn't one. Prescribing doctors just need to be on their toes to look for addictive behaviors. If an addict needs to be treated, they can pull their driver's license knowing that the person is likely to abuse their Rx.

Pain is a good thing for an acute problem. But when it drives on and on with a chronic problem, it is a life ruiner more than taking the chance of becoming an addict. A lot of addicts say it all started when...(medical procedure). Well their doctors failed to see the addictive behaviors and didn't cut them off. OR when they did cut them off the person turned into a street drug person. You can't win for losing in the war on pain and addiction. People have to WANT to be clean. Until that point, you can't help them. You just end up punishing the legitimate pain sufferers by making the drugs super expensive or changing the formulas to protect criminal behaviors in addicts. It's not fair. But life isn't fair.

[rohrer01]

It's a retrospective review, so it's entirely possible he wasn't present during any of the surgeries. The surgeries were performed between October 2002 and October 2008. I think he got his MD in 2004.

I am not debating the issue because I want to turn you away from him. I think he's probably very qualified. I just didn't want anyone thinking that just because someone's name is on a publication means that they've done a lot of that particular procedure.

--Linda

Even if the study started when he was in medical school, he could have gone to school with this particular interest in mind and teamed up with a professor to get involved (I had a couple of favorite profs that did favors like getting me a tutoring job and taking me into the research lab). Like I said after you originally mentioned dates, which I should have paid more attention to, I suggested that he was probably in on developing the imaging part of it and eventually in the OR likely observing, possibly given a shot at trying a couple. Most likely he was majorly involved in collecting the data. Whatever he did, he was part of the brains behind the study or his name would not be on it.

But thank you for the clarification. It's good for others reading this to know what it means.

It doesn't deter me from seeing him if my insurance allows me to go. He is obviously very knowledgeable on the topic and by now HAS performed the procedure many times. I need a doctor that specializes in that area of the spine. My current surgeon obviously does not.

Thanks,
Rohrer01

[mabeckoff]

I just want to say that if you are having surgery and will be fused from C3-pelvis, I would be glad to talk to you about it

Melissa