SpineCor and Insurance

[Pooka1]

And probably you would never need to have fusion. Fusion is not terrible for you. Do you believe that really has any sense what you are saying or you are simply doing your job here?

Fusion is about cutting losses. Normal is off the table. You are having difficulty with this because you are magically comparing not being fused to normal. If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.

You seem to think that because fusion does not restore normalcy then there has to be an effective conservative option. That is magical thinking. These patients have to cut their losses. Browbeating kids when there is no evidence for avoiding fusion for life is sad.

You never work the problem logically which is why you continue to struggle with this material.

[flerc]

You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?

'If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.'
And you are talking about irrational and magical thinking? My god!

And take care about what you say about parents of this forum, I know what your insane mind said about us and you seems close to repeat it.
And try to not be so pathetically obvious with your desperate intentions in aborting every thread as of course you are doing. This is a thread of Spinecor for adults and is clear that you have nothing to say!.

[burdle]

And take care about what you say about parents of this forum, I know what your insane mind said about us and you seems close to repeat it.
And try to not be so pathetically obvious with your desperate intentions in aborting every thread as of course you are doing. This is a thread of Spinecor for adults and is clear that you have nothing to say!.

I don't know about the US but in the UK Chiros are NOTHING to do with the NHS and thus the 'conventional' health system. This means that a doctor will NEVER prescribe going to see a chiropractor as a course of treatment. This means that anyone who does is 'outside' the mainstream healthcare while they have chiro treatment. This is fine - it is their choice, but it also means that the chiros can say and do anything. If you are in pain and have a curving spine then the sweet talk of a chiro telling you that they can help you, by putting you in a brace etc. is very appealing. Everyone who goes to a chiro LOVES THE ATTENTION they will get. And why not - compared with 'no help' unless you are a surgical candidate you can see why. It only becomes a serious problem when a chiro rubbishes the work of an orthopaedic surgeon- someone who has had years of training- not someone who has just trained on students with imaginary back problems- but someone who has had the whole spectrum of scoliosis coming through his doors and is QUALIFIED to make a judgment - then there IS a problem. And the problem is made worse by people like 'flerc' who cannot grasp the logicality of it and is 'blind' to facts.

I personally don't care if an adult chooses to wear spinecor - I hope it gives them some pain relief- but when we stray into the territory of treating children by scare tactics who may well end up having to have surgery maybe too late then it is a different matter.

Don't simply 'lump' chiros into CLEAR and non-CLEAR- this is ignorance on your part. Chiros have existed for a long-time - CLEAR is relatively new - straying into the field of Scoliosis because they are taking advantage of 'gap in the market'. And now that CLEAR has/is being discredited ( look at the TRACTION CHAIR study where their treatment has actually been shown to harm thoracic curves) some of the chiros have left and morphed into SCOLISMART- who are just pushing another well-packaged, expensive course of treatment, by discrediting surgery. And fools like you ( flerc) fall for it every time.

[Pooka1]

Don't simply 'lump' chiros into CLEAR and non-CLEAR- this is ignorance on your part. Chiros have existed for a long-time - CLEAR is relatively new - straying into the field of Scoliosis because they are taking advantage of 'gap in the market'. And now that CLEAR has/is being discredited ( look at the TRACTION CHAIR study where their treatment has actually been shown to harm thoracic curves) some of the chiros have left and morphed into SCOLISMART- who are just pushing another well-packaged, expensive course of treatment, by discrediting surgery. And fools like you ( flerc) fall for it every time.

This is such an excellent point.

It is understandable that people are afraid of surgery. Chiros take this situation and enflame it and then charge boatloads of money for useless treatments that have never put out any fires. Unfortunately, there will also be a market that chiros can exploit.

Chiro school has been compared to a trade school. It shows. CLEAR, NOT-CLEAR, ANY and ALL chiro sits on throne of an imaginary concept and these people have ZERO success treating scoliosis other than perhaps pain associated with it. But even there, chiro for low back pain is no better than other modalities.

The same CLEAR/Scolismart Chiros will keep morphing into new groups to avoid calls for evidence and the fact that their program isn't helping anyone and so they can tantalize and say the NEW program is better. Well the new programs are just as ineffective as the old or else they would never need to distance themselves from the old program. And how many people wasted money on CLEAR? And how many people are wasting money on Scolismart? And how many people will waste money on what Scolismart morphs into? The market is always there to be exploited and these people are never told they are experimental subjects. Why are they paying to be experimental subjects? Because they are not told they are experimental subjects.

[burdle]

[QUOTE=flerc;166663]You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?



VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves. It sound a marvellous solution and of course anyone would support it as a preference to fusion if/when it works , but stop going around suggesting that it can replace fusion surgery in all cases because it can't, and that people somehow (me) have a vested interested in fusion surgery, because I don't.

Interestingly Scolismart are 'cosying' up to surgeons performing VBT e.g Dr. Randall Betz and publishing picture of him with their team. They are sort of presenting Scolismart treatment as a necessary fore-runner for VBT - suggesting that it makes the spine more flexible' before the VBT surgery. I have been in contact with HARMS, where Dr Betz is a board member, who have confirmed that they do not recommend or acknowledge Scolismart treatment for Scoliosis and I have asked them to clarify why he is allowing his name to be 'used' in this way. If you want to waste your money - go-ahead - they will welcome any one with open arms - but stop giving them the medical validity that they crave.

[Pooka1]

Interestingly Scolismart are 'cosying' up to surgeons performing VBT e.g Dr. Randall Betz and publishing picture of him with their team. They are sort of presenting Scolismart treatment as a necessary fore-runner for VBT - suggesting that it makes the spine more flexible' before the VBT surgery. I have been in contact with HARMS, where Dr Betz is a board member, who have confirmed that they do not recommend or acknowledge Scolismart treatment for Scoliosis and I have asked them to clarify why he is allowing his name to be 'used' in this way. If you want to waste your money - go-ahead - they will welcome any one with open arms - but stop giving them the medical validity that they crave.

THANK YOU Burdle!!! OMG.

Linda, can you please pin this or make it a sticky post or whatever to the top of the forum so people can see it?

Seeing CLEAR chiros in a photo with Dr. Betz made me almost throw up in my mouth.

[Pooka1]

You seems to think that iatrogenia cannot be attributed to fusion. It seems that you ignore the irreversible effects of such kind of old (unacceptable old) kind of surgery in every case, even in the most successful cases. If you would be talking about Vbs/Vbt it would be different. Why you don't promote these kind of surgeries? Or are you recommending people decided to surgery in the surgery section to select these new kind of surgeries?

VBT/VBS is not suitable for adults and only suitable for some children's curves. It sound a marvellous solution and of course anyone would support it as a preference to fusion if/when it works , but stop going around suggesting that it can replace fusion surgery in all cases because it can't, and that people somehow (me) have a vested interested in fusion surgery, because I don't.

Flerc wrote this after I had lamented about VBS/VBT not being established enough when my kids needed it. Flerc is not able to follow along.

Furthermore, I am just relaying my understanding of the various evidence cases. That Flerc thinks I "promote" anything is again his not following along. Discussing whether something has evidence or not is not promoting or denigrating. It is stating the evidence case. Flerc never wants to acknowledge the poor evidence case for alternative treatments and so he elides this point continually.

[flerc]

What has to do what you said? Is not clear if you think that today is established enough or not yet. Are you talking about Vbt as you never stop to talking about fusion? I'm not affirming nothing, I'm only asking. You should have never been here. Your only one purpose of course is to discourage people about non surgical treatments. Do you think that people is stupid and don't realize it?
How many times we discussed this point of evidence? You have all the time to do your job here, I don't. I will open a thread about this point and I will quote it all the time you begin with your 'There is no evidence' My God!.

[flerc]

And if you want to say something about my behaviour here, of course you know you have not any kind of authority, since you did a very much serious accusation to parents of this forum, you should to be convicted!.

[flerc]

Fusion is about cutting losses. Normal is off the table. You are having difficulty with this because you are magically comparing not being fused to normal. If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.

You seem to think that because fusion does not restore normalcy then there has to be an effective conservative option. That is magical thinking. These patients have to cut their losses. Browbeating kids when there is no evidence for avoiding fusion for life is sad.

You never work the problem logically which is why you continue to struggle with this material.

And certainly I talked about fusion iatrogenia after you said this. Browbeating kids to have fusion is not sad for you..

[flerc]

If fusion wasn't the only option for some people then they would never be fused. But people are fused. Therefore it was their only option.

You may be sure that many people having them or their kids fusion, didn't try with something else before, after reading what you said all the day in this prosurgical forum. What do you feel about this? Is not sad for you? Are you happy thinking how effective your work was?

[Pooka1]

Browbeating kids to have fusion is not sad for you..

This makes no sense. Nobody needs to be browbeaten into surgery. You are spiralling into further emotion, irration, and magical thinking.

[flerc]

Kids are forced to use a brace or to having fusion or do you believe that they decides by themselves? But is only sad when they are braced, no fusioned. Parents bracing their sons are ignorants, sadistics and all what you said thousands of times here.
And tell me

You may be sure that many people having them or their kids fusion, didn't try with something else before, after reading what you said all the day in this prosurgical forum. What do you feel about this? Is not sad for you? Are you happy thinking how effective your work was?

How do you feel?

[flerc]

Parents bracing their sons are ignorants, sadistics and all what you said thousands of times here.

If this would not be a prosurgical forum, parents here would not need to denounce your calumnies. The owners of this forum would have fired you time ago!.

[Pooka1]

This is a pro-evidence-either-way forum. You misunderstand that and misinterpret the fact that there is no good evidence for conservative treatments to avoid progression to be "pro-surgery".

There is no such thing as "pro-surgery". You made that label up to avoid admitting there is no good evidence for conservative treatments.

Nobody is "pro-surgery". That is just the label you put on people who understand the evidence case. You clearly do not.

It is okay to try treatments that are unproven. But you shouldn't lie tochildren to make them comply. You disagree with that. Fine. This is what I am talking about in terms of honesty and rationality and how long the odds are for any conservative treatment to let people avoid surgery for life.

You avoid the real issues and contribute confused nonsense.