SpineCor and Insurance

[flerc]

I'm only able to talk following rational thinking, what may be magical thinking for you, I have not idea. Also I don't know what could be an effective treatment for you.
I said about enough evidence proving that progression and pain in adults is stopped WHILE it is worn. Is not clear what happens then, it sure depends on many different factors. Do you say that it could not stop progression in a permanent way? Prove it!
And really which is your point? What are you trying to say? that adults thinking in Spinecor are wasting time and money? prove it! Which do you think is a better option for adults? What would you do if you would have a health problem and there would not be a serious study about something showing that it works? Or do you think that there is one?

[burdle]

There is no evidence that Spinecor works. Nevertheless many people use it and say it helps them, probably because there is nothing else for them to try and the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to managing a chronic condition.
It is never going to be fashionable or cost effective to do serious research into managing scoliosis while you have people who report success where there is none AND claim it is scientifically proved.

We need to get serious research done so that we can blast these dodgy chiros out of the water completely!

[Pooka1]

There is no evidence that Spinecor works. Nevertheless many people use it and say it helps them, probably because there is nothing else for them to try and the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to managing a chronic condition.
It is never going to be fashionable or cost effective to do serious research into managing scoliosis while you have people who report success where there is none AND claim it is scientifically proved.

We need to get serious research done so that we can blast these dodgy chiros out of the water completely!

I completely agree.

Pediatric surgeons largely stopped using Spinecor when they "couldn't make it work" to paraphrase one top guy. That's why people have to resort to chiros who don't give a crap about no stinkin' evidence case. :-)

I do believe the anecdotal claims by adults that their pain is lessened while they wear it but we never seem to get reports about when they stop wearing it. It seems likely their pain would return and their curves would progress because the brace has taken over for muscle and they will have less core afterwards. So the claim that it stops progression in adults is not very likely to be true and it probably as bogus as the Danish Twins study. LOL.

[flerc]

Surgeons used it ever? I think they only recommends what the protocol says, that is only rigid braces and fusion.. everything changed in the world in the last century except this protocol..

I do believe the anecdotal claims by adults that their pain is lessened while they wear it but we never seem to get reports about when they stop wearing it. It seems likely their pain would return and their curves would progress because the brace has taken over for muscle and they will have less core afterwards.

It would be almost true if we were talking about rigid braces. With Spinecor would be probably the same if was not reduction in brace, otherwise sure after using it, muscles should to be stronger and is very probably a significant bone remodeling, that is what led to use Vbt in adults too. Also the neuromuscular system is accustomed to the new stretched posture and will try to keep it.
Anyway you may be believe that the curve will return, surely is not possible to predict it, but nobdy may say thay it is not reasonable to prove it.

[LindaRacine]

Surgeons used it ever? I think they only recommends what the protocol says, that is only rigid braces and fusion.. everything changed in the world in the last century except this protocol..



It would be almost true if we were talking about rigid braces. With Spinecor would be probably the same if was not reduction in brace, otherwise sure after using it, muscles should to be stronger and is very probably a significant bone remodeling, that is what led to use Vbt in adults too. Also the neuromuscular system is accustomed to the new stretched posture and will try to keep it.
Anyway you may be believe that the curve will return, surely is not possible to predict it, but nobdy may say thay it is not reasonable to prove it.

A surgeon invented the Spinecor brace.

[flerc]

I know it. I asked him some years ago if the Spinecor would be able to hold a significant reduction in the spine of my daughter and he refused to answer me because he was sure that with a high riser was too late. He was sure that bones cannot change.
As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

[burdle]

It was Professor Charles Hilaire Rivard who invented the Spinecor brace.


He was a orthopaedic surgeon. He is retired and it is not clear why his research into alternative scoliosis treatments wasn't continued by his team.

I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up and why it is now offered by Chriros?


@Flerc- you seem to imply that you spoke to him?

[Pooka1]

I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up [...]

One surgeon I spoke to said they weren't persuaded by the publications on the purported efficacy of the brace.

Another, Peter Newton, very eminent researchy ped orthopedic surgeon said they did clinical work with the brace but "couldn't make it work." So the guy I talked to who concluded the publications were nonsense was probably right.

If it worked, all pediatric orthopedic surgeons would offer it. As it stands now, very few if any do. It's mainly chiros offering it because they don't know how to assess scientific evidence apparently.

[burdle]

I know it. I asked him some years ago if the Spinecor would be able to hold a significant reduction in the spine of my daughter and he refused to answer me because he was sure that with a high riser was too late. He was sure that bones cannot change.
As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

Surgeons continue to offer rigid braces but not Spinecor- this would suggest that this is because Spinecor doesn't work!

[Pooka1]

As I know, a surgeon invented the TRM too, but they only recommends what the protocol says.

That surgeon only worked with 20 patients TOTAL, double published most of the data without acknowledging it, and was not forthcoming with colleagues.

Not much to hang your hat on in my opinion.

There are only 35 patients ever studied for torso rotation to control scoliosis and the results are a mixed bag.

[flerc]

It was Professor Charles Hilaire Rivard who invented the Spinecor brace.


He was a orthopaedic surgeon. He is retired and it is not clear why his research into alternative scoliosis treatments wasn't continued by his team.

I am unable to find reasons why colleagues of his did not take the brace up and why it is now offered by Chriros?


@Flerc- you seem to imply that you spoke to him?

Yes Burdle, I had an extensive discussion via email with him because I was thinking to go to Spain (it was not in country) with my daughter, but I should have to be sure that a significant reduction in brace could be possible. Some years after I contacted a Spain Dr. who told me about a very much similar case to my daughter when asked to Dr. Rivas and he said me that he was very happy with that girl who had a reduction around 50% of her curve and he was very sure that after treatment the reduction could remain. He said me that I should not be angry with Dr. Rivas who is a good man and was very much attacked for other surgeons because he did something nonsurgical. And really good without any doubt. Of course surgeons wants to do surgeries, is what they knows to do. And about scoliosis they seems to want to continue doing fusion! Is incredible how much of them as I really know, discourage people about Vbs and Vbt!
If you think that surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the current human knowledge about scoliosis, you have nothing to do in this section. You should to forget scoliosis or have fusion if your curve is enough big or wait until that moment.

[flerc]

That surgeon only worked with 20 patients TOTAL, double published most of the data without acknowledging it, and was not forthcoming with colleagues.

Not much to hang your hat on in my opinion.

There are only 35 patients ever studied for torso rotation to control scoliosis and the results are a mixed bag.

I was referring to the fact that surgeons do not recommends Spinecor and nothing else because they only recommends what the one century old protocol says.
I don't believe that something like TRM or any other option may be a cure of the scoliosis by her own at least in an adult. I'm sure it's a multifactorial problem, so a combination of treatments treating different factors are needed.

[flerc]

One surgeon I spoke to said they weren't persuaded by the publications on the purported efficacy of the brace.

Another, Peter Newton, very eminent researchy ped orthopedic surgeon said they did clinical work with the brace but "couldn't make it work." So the guy I talked to who concluded the publications were nonsense was probably right.

If it worked, all pediatric orthopedic surgeons would offer it. As it stands now, very few if any do. It's mainly chiros offering it because they don't know how to assess scientific evidence apparently.

Which was the reduction in brace in the cases that he failed?

[Pooka1]

Which was the reduction in brace in the cases that he failed?

Are you suggestion Newton missed something or needs your input to interpret his clinical study results?

[flerc]

If you think that surgeons are absolutely good intentioned and having all the current human knowledge about scoliosis, you have nothing to do in this section. You should to forget scoliosis or have fusion if your curve is enough big or wait until that moment.

You have nothing to do in this thread also if you think that evidence is the only argument that must to be taken into account. Mamamax, the only one adult who used the Spinecor is not any more here since some years ago. You should to talk with people in Face groups or other groups, but remember, having a significant reduction in brace.