Scolismart

[burdle]

Hi,

I am in UK and we don't have Scolismart Clinics. I was wondering what you guys think of this company. There are many people on Facebook who seems to swear by the bootcamp that they offer.

I myself got banned from the Facebook group 'Scoliosis warriors' (along with many others) because I challenged the organiser (C Stitzel) who seems to be one of the main people behind Scolismart for published studies and also probed more deeply into some of his claims.

Nevertheless I can't deny that his aim is good- to find a better way of treatment etc. And I can't help feeling that more guidance needs to be given by the professional bodies ( SAUK, NSF) as to whether Scolismart can actually reduce curves etc.

[mariaf]

All I will say is that just because people "swear by" something, that doesn't mean anything. You don't even know who those people are or anything about them or their situation. Or if they are actual patients - they could even be plants. I would also be very wary of anyone who boots you from their group because you are probing their claims.

[burdle]

They are real people it is a flourishing Facebook group. Most of the people who use the bootcamp are parents of children with Scoliosis. He does have a lot of adults post surgery with problems who are big supporters and post a lot of support for him. Facebook seems to be taking over from forums such as NSF and the UK Scoliosis support.org. There groups are flourishing so I think it is vitally important that we are all aware.

I actually think he is onto something as I do agree that scoliosis is very much to do with the neuro transmitters etc. and I think it is time that patients were offered co-ordinated, joined up help and not just left if surgery is not an option. I don't think it is a scam by any means as the organisation is too big, but I do think that the medical profession should get involved.

[mariaf]

I'm not necessarily saying it's a scam, and maybe his method can work for very small curves, I don't know, but I do know that I see red flags. That group is one of the many scoliosis forums that I am part of because I'm always looking for families I can help by sharing my experiences, as well as any knowledge that I've accumulated over the years. I have seen folks receive advice from the founder that I don't agree with. I'm not a doctor but have learned quite a bit over the past 10-12 years about scoliosis in children. I've heard the founder tell parents of children with curves in the 60-70 degree range that he can correct it with exercise at his boot camp (which is quite expensive - although that in and of itself doesn't mean anything). But there is no way he is going to permanently correct a 65 degree curve - only surgery can do that unfortunately.

This is strictly my opinion - please know this is all meant to be helpful, not confrontational :-)

[Pooka1]

HNevertheless I can't deny that his aim is good- to find a better way of treatment etc.

Hi Burdle,

It is fine and dandy to want to find a better way but it is reprehensible, unconscionable, despicable, etc. to CHARGE people for experimenting on them until they find that better way. And they are charging A LOT from what I hear.

Stitzel and company are chiropracters, not medical doctors. You are in the UK where chiros are not allowed to use the "Dr." title but unfortunately they are allowed to use that title here. You can find chiros using the "Dr." title on their webs sites and NOWHERE do they admit they are only chiros. They are deliberately misleading people into thinking they are medical doctors. They are not trained to deal with scoliosis. They are lay people. There is no evidence chiro helps with scoliosis.

[burdle]

I am with you about the doctor/chiro bit- I am not a novice at this... I have since re-joined the group under a different name - that's how strongly I feel about challenging him.


BUT it seems in the US that a lot of medicine is charged for- the model is slightly different in the UK


The current model of wait and see if the curve progresses is not brilliant. The cause of the curve does need looking into and I do feel that patients should have a proper health path to follow.

In UK we are just left to wait and see with the option of bracing if not fully grown. I do think that something a long the lines of what he is offering should be available - if only as a means of keeping muscle tone and pain relief. But again the medical community needs to act- either publicly discredit what Scolismart are doing or look more closely and actually see if there is anything in looking at the neuro-transmitters etc. It's just this silence that frustrates me while as you say people may be being exploited.

People in pain are not the best people to be asked to weigh up all the options and evidence.

[Pooka1]

Burdle I agree with what you are saying. Of course you are right.

The problem is that IS is almost an orphan disease. I was told there are only three research groups worldwide studying the etiology. That sounds orphan to me!!! There are at least 6 etiologies that are being studied and neuro is one of them. Chiros like neuro not because they think it is the best explanation of the etiology but because they think chiro can address that etiology. But chiro is not a science and can't address any etiology.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...-chiropractic/

1. Chiropractic is a science. NO
2. Chiropractic is based on neurology, anatomy and physiology. NO
3. Chiropractors are doctors of the nervous system. NO
4. Chiropractic improves health and quality of life. NO

If the etiology of IS is neuro we will learn that from the PhD/MD researchers trained in science, not from lay people like chiros.

Surgeons are limited to studying various treatments and many have active publishing careers. They mainly report on the efficacy of bracing and various surgical techniques. A few PhD and MD researchers study PT and such. Weiss, an MD, studied Schroth for 10 years and 30,000+ patients but couldn't show it worked to avoid surgery. He has dozens and dozens of papers and I think it is obvious he knows how to do research and publish it. If it worked he would have shown it.

Chiros have the lowest GPA of any of the allied medical professions (podiatry, etc.) and the quality of education they get in chiro chollege has been documented as piss-poor. These people, as a general rule, would not otherwise have a chance in hell of getting into medical school. They are not trained in research which explains why all their various schemes (Clear, Scolismart, boot camp, etc.) never adn will never produce evidence of efficacy. It makes my skin crawl that they treat children, use radiology, charge money, etc. etc. They are lay people when it comes to almost everything and especially when it comes to scoliosis.

http://www.rebuildyourback.com/chiro...c/students.php

[Pooka1]

The CLEAR chiros now have a surgical forum on their site. This is truly the blind leading the blind leading the scared.

They are approaching the literature in a lay fashion which of course is in keeping with them not being trained in research and it shows. They constantly comparing surgery against a normal background (no scoliosis) instead of surgery against non-normal (untreated scoliosis). This is a rookie LAY mistake.

Chiros have no business discussing surgical treatments FULL STOP. Where do you get that kind of nerve? Can you buy it?

[burdle]

Thanks Pooka


The surgical approach they are cosying up to is VBS (VBT). It seems that they encourage you to do a bootcamp and then if not successful pass you to a VBT clinic- This at least employs genuine surgeons - but I don't understand why the VBS guys allow them to be associated with Scolismart. Why don't they expose it?

The way they get people is by frightening people about fusion surgery. I am sure that they are correct in that it should be avoided at all costs if possible, but Scolismart refuse to actually admit that any solution or path they have can ONLY be suitable for children. It cannot work for adults and VBS is not for adults.

when I challenge him on this - Stitzel keeps saying that they are working on an adult program as well...

[Pooka1]

They tossed you from the group because you know what you are talking about. :-) More comments below...

Thanks Pooka


The surgical approach they are cosying up to is VBS (VBT). It seems that they encourage you to do a bootcamp and then if not successful pass you to a VBT clinic- This at least employs genuine surgeons - but I don't understand why the VBS guys allow them to be associated with Scolismart. Why don't they expose it?

How are they associating themselves with Scolismart? Who is doing this? Aren't the VBS/VBT surgeons just taking patients as they come? I doubt they are paying any mind to the fact these kids did chiro first. Surgeons should not be countenancing chiros working with children in my opinion. Chiro is not a science.

The annoying part about this is that most curves will not progress to surgical range. These chiros are claiming every one of those people who happen to be doing their wacky program were saved from surgery by the wacky program. They ignore the fact that these curves would not have progressed even if the people were sitting on the sofa doing no wacky stuff. They are either ignorant or lying when they claim their program is effective because that is very hard to shown by trained researchers. Therefore it is virtually impossible for lay people like chiros to show. For the larger curves, there is no evidence they are stopping them and saving a single person from surgery. They don't admit this.

Everyone should be advocating for VBS and VBT over fusion. That's a no-brainer. But what about the kids who are out of range and all the adults?

The way they get people is by frightening people about fusion surgery. I am sure that they are correct in that it should be avoided at all costs if possible, but Scolismart refuse to actually admit that any solution or path they have can ONLY be suitable for children. It cannot work for adults and VBS is not for adults.

when I challenge him on this - Stitzel keeps saying that they are working on an adult program as well...

I agree completely! It is despicable how they cherry-pick the literature just to scare people about surgery. They pick old papers that aren't relevant to modern surgical techniques or they pick European papers that have different definitions of "disabled" form what we have today. Once again, either ignorant or lying. There is no third choice.

Chiros don't have a better solution over fusion and they are charging people while they experiment (waste time) on them. I am not sure if the neuro etiology has the most evidence at the moment. But even if it does, it does NOT follow that the chiro nonsense (pardon that redundancy) is necessarily effective in treating it. It may be far deeper in the brain and inaccessible to chiro PT. So many leaps of faith. So many layers of sheer nonsense going on with CLEAR/Scolismart/boot camp chiro.

[Pooka1]

They love citing an old European paper on some percentage of fused people who are considered "disabled." But they never discuss how much WORSE these people would be absent fusion. Or if some of these people had their lives saved by fusion. No, they are tacitly comparing fusion to N-O-R-M-A-L which is not on the table. So dishonest. So, so dishonest.

This is why chiros should NOT be discussing the surgical literature or any literature actually in their capacity as chiros.

[burdle]

[QUOTE=Pooka1;164595]
How are they associating themselves with Scolismart? Who is doing this? Aren't the VBS/VBT surgeons just taking patients as they come? I doubt they are paying any mind to the fact these kids did chiro first. Surgeons should not be countenancing chiros working with children in my opinion. Chiro is not a science.


This is the SCOLISMART website http://www.treatingscoliosis.com/ver...g-or-stapling/ They like to suggest that they are working closely with VBS

[Pooka1]

It seems like they are just talking about the work of Betz and others who are doing VBS/VBT. They only imply they are working together with the surgeons but really they are just continuing with their stuff and admitting some kids need surgery. That's a huge admission by the chiros against the efficacy of their treatment.

It's great that they are getting the word out about these non-fusion surgeries but it is nauseating to hear them lump their with stuff in with the science of VBS and VBT in the same breath. These treatments do NOT stand on a continuum. Surgery is based in the science of medicine and chiro is based on the lie of subluxations. Chiro is based entirely on an imaginary concept which explains why it works about as well as massage for one issue... lumbar pain NOT associated with scoliosis.

There is no evidence chiro or CLEAR or Scolismart is effective for controlling scoliosis progression. If there was they would publish in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. They shown apparent improvements but they are never shown long term that isn't above the long-term of just doing nothing. Chiro hasn't been shown to be better than no treatment in the long term essentially. And in some cases you can see they are measuring the curve differently and incorrectly (not using the most tilted vertebra) in before and after radiographs. The numbers they put on the curve are different but the curves aren't in many cases. They shouldn't be measuring curves at all since they claim that shouldn't be the defining feature of an effective treatment. The reason they say that is because their treatment is not halting or reducing curvature over and above natural history or in the long term.

[burdle]

This is one of Stitzel's latest posts:

"This patient did "pre-op" curve flexibility treatment at a ScoliSMART clinic (Dr. Aatif Siddiqui) in order to qualify for Scoliosis Tethering, instead of fusion" .

And this link has them all together in a photo ( BETZ and Stitzel) http://www.treatingscoliosis.com/ver...g-or-stapling/


I posted back that they were trying to imply that they were all doctors but got no reply!

[Pooka1]

This is one of Stitzel's latest posts:

"This patient did "pre-op" curve flexibility treatment at a ScoliSMART clinic (Dr. Aatif Siddiqui) in order to qualify for Scoliosis Tethering, instead of fusion" .

And this link has them all together in a photo ( BETZ and Stitzel) http://www.treatingscoliosis.com/ver...g-or-stapling/


I posted back that they were trying to imply that they were all doctors but got no reply!

Obviously i don't know what is going on but if there was a requirement to improve curve flexibility before tethering then they could have used any number of PT programs, not limited to chiro. Does CLEAR/SCOLISMART even claim to improve flexibility? I thought they just claimed to stop or reduce curvature?

It sounds to me like CLEAR/SCOLISMART is getting away from their original claims (of necessity) and trying to carve out a niche associated with VBS/VBT that doesn't seem to be there or at least uniquely associated with chiro. I can certainly understand Dr. Betz and the other surgeons wanted to get the word out as widely as possible and I guess they are satisfied that the chiros are not just automatically scaring patients about surgery any more.

I agree with you that the photo with them all using the "Dr." title is grossly misleading. Many people are going to be confused by that. I have a doctorate and can use the "Dr." title but I never do because people just assume I am a medical doctor and then I am forced to explain it. Way too painful for me so I don't use it. The chiros are deliberately using it for that purpose it seems.