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Thread: Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I am the same Rohrer I have always been.
    Certainly is good to hear this! I'll assume is really true.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I will address what I said about "idiots" one more time. I said that anyone who makes healthcare decisions solely on the basis of information from a public forum is an idiot. I stand by that.

    What I DID NOT say is, anyone who uses a public forum to weigh into their healthcare decision is an idiot. EVERYONE here uses information they find to help them make decisions, just not solely from information they find here. I've found a ton of helpful information here that I have weighed into my healthcare decisions along with input from my healthcare providers AND what makes sense to me personally.

    Do you see the difference in the two statements? Is it a language barrier? If what you thought were true, we would ALL be idiots for using the forum.
    Of course you must to take into account the context under it was said all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    You must to be careful about what you say in a forum. Mainly if it is the bigest of the world. If you like to does categorical assertions when you have philosophic discusions while taking a coffe in a bar with your friends, nobody may blame you about anything even if those assertions has not any sense or cannot be proven, but is absolutely different if you make it here.

    If someone here is doing a categorical assertions, mainly if never stop to do it, then must to prove it or reedit it...
    Then you replied

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    The forum has a waiver that states:
    "Nonetheless, this is an open public forum, and we caution every member of this community to use common sense and judgment in determining how to use the contacts and information from this center. NSF provides this service as informational only, and does not endorse or take responsibility for any person, statement, or item contained within this center. So, we welcome you to proceed enthusiastically, yet cautiously, in finding the information, and connections you are looking for to make informed healthcare decisions regarding scoliosis and related spinal deformities. To get started, simply click the link below to enter the forum."

    Bold mine.


    With that in mind, the only idiotic people out there are the ones who base their decisions solely on what people post on this forum.

    No disrespect intended, Flerc. It just seems that you are arguing for the sake of arguing without any meaningful information to give.
    .
    Why you said that? I cannot imagine other reason than saying there is no problem in posting categorical assertions even having no sense here, because it only may hurt people who base their decisions solely on what people post on this forum (idiots)
    I may agree with ‘anyone who makes healthcare decisions solely on the basis of information from a public forum is an idiot.’. Certainly I may also agree with a stronger assertion: ‘anyone who makes healthcare decisions solely on the basis of only one source is an idiot.’.
    But if I know that doing something wrong I may hurt someone, it would be absolutely irrelevant for me to know if he is an idiot or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Yes, it was right what I felt when I read what you said about idiots making medical decisions only thinking in what they read in a forum.. and if decision rely in other source, what they read here cannot weigh in their decision?
    I missed an ‘also’
    ‘and if decision also rely in other source,’

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    EVERYONE here uses information they find to help them make decisions, just not solely from information they find here. I've found a ton of helpful information here that I have weighed into my healthcare decisions along with input from my healthcare providers AND what makes sense to me personally.
    Is basically what I was saying before.

    So, I don’t understand your argue against my claim about categorical assertions.. is absolutely clear for us how important is what we may find here.. and certainly this claim is the reason of this thread.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-26-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    You are assigning the wrong values to A and B. I will try to be more clear:

    A represents a particular treatment.
    B represents a positive outcome (in our discussion a curve reduction of a large degree).

    (A==>B) ONLY if A is true. Otherwise A and B are independent of each other. In a logic statement like (A==>B), (B=/=>A), meaning B does not lead to A or imply anything about A. It only goes one direction; from A leading to B and not the other way around. So if you have used a particular treatment, A, that is unproven (would be considered false until proven) and get B (positive outcome), then in this case you must PROVE that (A==>B) by PROVING that A is true. Otherwise B is independent of A which makes B irrelevant to A and you can not positively say that (A==>B) because A is false (ambiguous, not proven). In order to prove A, then A has to consistently and predictably lead to B. That's why one or two good outcomes, B's, in relation to a particular treatment, A, aren't enough. A has to lead to B [B]every time [B]for A to be true.
    .

    Rohrer, I was sure all of this was a big misunderstanding, and yes, now I know what happened. I was not understanding why you said I gave wrong values to A and B, so I decide to read from the first post.. and I didn’t need to read any more.
    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option.... and that all the other health professionals are criminals, non surgical treatments donīt works, cannot works, people believing in them are desperate/stupid..
    Up to this point is right. I claimed her stop to doing that.

    But then I was not clear enough and the worst is I wrote wrong what I wanted to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    So, if you are saying that there is not evidence that non-surgical treatments works, you should to prove at least that NEVER worked in any case in the world or you should to prove that cannot works, that is, giving a logical demonstration about it . You never did that as I know.
    Of course I wanted to say ‘worked’, as I meant in the rest of the thread. Sorry very much!.. at least I know now I should not write in English so fast as I do in Spanish.. except I’d read very carefully what I wrote before posting it. I PROMISE I'll try to do it!!
    And certainly is not clear what I means with ‘cannot works’ I was so focused in the ‘evidence of one case’ that I was thinking in works in just only one case but I didn’t wrote it.
    And also ‘at least’ is confused.. I was thinking that proving that cannot works in just only one case, (supposing it would be true), sure would be much hard that giving something as a demonstration by the absurd proving that if would be one case it should to be well known by all of us.
    And the last (I hope) ‘work’.. what means work? Her definition (I used in the rest of the post) is enough good for me.
    So the right sentence is:

    So, if you are saying that There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery, you should to prove that NEVER worked in any case in the world or you should to prove that cannot works in just only one case, that is, giving a logical demonstration about it . You never did that as I know.

    Is so logical as saying: If you says 'There is not evidence about just only one Japanese with a height > 2 meters'. You should to prove that certainly not exist such japanese in the world or give something like a genetic explanation about why is impossible that someone of this country may reach that height.
    Really I’m so sorry for the desagradable confusion and conflict this mistake/ carelessness provoked.
    I suppose now is clear for you all what I was trying to say and why. Of course if not I’m sure you’ll make me note.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-26-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  3. #63
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    I have modified the bad redacted post and now says what must to say.
    I hope to see modified (or deleted) too all the posts with the famous sentence 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' or see the proof of such assertion.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-26-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    I have modified the bad redacted post and now says what must to say.
    I hope to see modified (or deleted) too all the posts with the famous sentence 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' or see the proof of such assertion.
    My only use of that sentence was to explain with logic what was meant by it. Since I'm not the one who said it, I will refer it to Sharon to remove it if she so desires. I'm guessing it will stand, otherwise this whole thread will need to be deleted. I gave you two examples of "possible" alternative therapies helping children on this forum; Dingo and Tamztom. This is all you need for your understanding of the word "proof" since you asked for only one case.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    .. and that all the other health professionals are criminals, non surgical treatments donīt works, cannot works, people believing in them are desperate/stupid.. and as I said you here stop to dirtying other threads in order to make your work.
    Wow, cerrtainly it seems I was speaking with my self..my English had nothing to do with this. I should have to clarify also what I meant with 'cannot work', probably is not clear I was refering to cannot work for noone (cannot help noone), not that cannot works the method in the sense I really want they works someday.

    The negative (not) 'cannot work for noone' is 'may work for someone', that is, may prevent 'someone' to have a surgery, that is, if instead of using that method, 'someone' would had not did anything, or just only does non sense activities (in order to avoid surgery) as taking a bath every day, eating a vegan diet or standing under a full moon for three consecutive months or other absurds posibilities as you mentioned before, sure, 'someone' would have the need of surgery. Certainly I reserve my opinion of some old member here may arguing that probably 'someone' avoid surgery because taking a bath every day.. not seeing television every day..it would be different to talk about life styles, including not necessarily profesional treatments but activities/sports as swimming. Certainly I'm not sure if it may be the reason in a case I know.

    So, if someone is using her stament 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' to CONVINCE people that not exists just only one non surgical treatment (including special life syles/activities.. also a smart customized combination of all of them (my old dream)) that may help him to avoid a surgery, as she did in tons of threads, also should to update/deletes all of them. I only use (certainly quote) this statment just only to show how perverse is what is happening in this forum.

    If you or someone else use it because also believe it would be fool to hope to avoid a surgery if the surgeon's protocol or some surgeon said that is not possible, but only wanting to help in saying that, not to convince, of course is their right to do that. Anyway must to give a rational and well founded arguments of their proclaim.. except the name of this forum would be something as Surgeon'sScolioisForum and have a waiver as I suggested here before

  6. #66
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    If you aren't evidence-based then you are faith-based. That is NOT appropriate when dealing with a serious medical condition FULL STOP. It is so inappropriate that courts have stepped in with parents who try to substitute faith for evidence when it comes to medical issues of their children.

    I am certainly not saying anyone here needs court intervention. I am saying the same type of thinking that eschews evidence is on display.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    If you aren't evidence-based then you are faith-based. That is NOT appropriate when dealing with a serious medical condition FULL STOP. It is so inappropriate that courts have stepped in with parents who try to substitute faith for evidence when it comes to medical issues of their children.

    I am certainly not saying anyone here needs court intervention. I am saying the same type of thinking that eschews evidence is on display.
    Of course is something enough clear for everyone that

    [the categorical assertion
    'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

    is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

    ‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

    Is not needed any background in formal logics or Math or any degree in any important Scientist University of the world or really any kind of study to understand something some obvious. Certainly I not think that may be needed a rational mind..is a matter of common sense.
    Trying to proving the contrary adducing the validity or not of the implication of the second sentence by the first, would only be sophisticated contraptions trying to deny what cannot be deny.
    And certainly only a perfect idiot may infer since all the above [assertion] that who may do it is not evidence-based.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-27-2013 at 09:51 AM.

  8. #68
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    No evidence of efficacy =/= can't work.

    For example, there is no good evidence bracing or PT works in AIS but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped a small, select group that would be unidentifiable in a study due to variability. Showing that any conservative treatment has avoided surgery is probably too tall an order to ever show.

    If alternative treatments had evidence they worked then they would produce it. Why don't they produce it? Schroth has had over 90 years. Other PT has been around at least a decade. What are they waiting for?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #69
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    First of all, do you agree with my assertion []

    [your categorical assertion
    'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

    is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

    ‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

    or not?
    Last edited by flerc; 03-10-2013 at 09:18 PM.

  10. #70
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    curing scoliosis....???
    if there is a "cure" developed for crooked, i am sure there is a Nobel
    prize in medicine waiting...for any cure for anything crooked in the human body....
    when bones don't heal right, they are broken and re-set....straight...
    i cannot imagine the fantasy world in which crooked is made straight
    without involving bones being reset in some way or other...
    maybe faaaar in the future...
    for now, i know lots of patients who would be thrilled if just the
    pain could be "cured"

    jess

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    First of all, do you agree with my assertion []

    [the categorical assertion
    'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

    is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

    ‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

    or not?
    I'm waiting for the answer (Y/N) .. or the updating/deleting of all those posts.

  12. #72
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    i do not know if bracing should be called "cured" unless that person never needs any more tx of any kind...delaying tx is not
    the same as curing, in my book...
    so i would think it requires decades of follow up...

    do not know enuf about stapling to know...but i shall ask Maria
    if it is thought to "cure" and how long the results have been followed
    up...decades...???

    jess

  13. #73
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    Bracing in JIS can reduce curves. Bracing is NOT to claimed to reduce curves in AIS because it never does apparently.

    Stapling appears to be the closest thing to a cure for scoliosis along with fusions that stay above about L3. Tethering will hopefully join this group. And of course natural history itself cures some JIS and AIS cases.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #74
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    so that means that the only "cure" is when scoliosis can be stopped in it's tracks and reversed for young people/children before adulthood....
    yes?
    i do not consider natural history a cure, as it seems so random...
    and beyond the influence of any kind of medical intervention.

    jess

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    so that means that the only "cure" is when scoliosis can be stopped in it's tracks and reversed for young people/children before adulthood....
    yes?
    i do not consider natural history a cure, as it seems so random...
    and beyond the influence of any kind of medical intervention.

    jess
    Well I just meant that natural history can reduce or even totally straighten some curves. So they essentially cure themselves.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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