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Thread: Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    With that in mind, the only idiotic people out there are the ones who base their decisions solely on what people post on this forum.
    I cannot believe you may say something like this..
    Certainly it has not also any sense for me to try to explain you how something that we heard, realy seeming true for us, may lead us to take some decision, a difficult decision we were not sure to take up to heard it, but sure it not care you. You should to know that, you should to know what is to deal with complex situations.. no, I don't know what you should to know or not, I don't know you, I believed that at least in some sense but I was wrong

  2. #32
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    If I insisted now also to you to prove the categorical assertions you make or support, is thinking in people confused, not knowing the difference between a ligament and a tendon, as me when I heard for first time about the scoliosis and I have had to take a an extremely difficult decision without enough information.. ever is not enough, but the worst is to have not the minimal knowledge in order to judge the information we are desperating trying to get.. and I'm sure there are many people around the world in that complex situation.. and at least not all of them idiots.. and certainly if it would be the case, it would be even more important to no not confuse them.

    So if I said that non surgical treatments may work, is because I really believe it as I explained why, hundreds of times before and I never said in a categorical way that realy works, as you assert or support the contrary. And the best way to convince about it is saying that never worked.
    So, you is who must to prove your categorical assertions.said or supported by you.
    If I know or not about a succesful case, or why I doubt about your assertion, will not help you to prove what you must to prove.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-24-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    how something that we heard, realy seeming true for us, may lead us to take some decision
    Specially if it is said in the name of science.. sure the waiver is not so useful.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Are you arguing for the sake of argument or is there a therapy out there that you know works?
    I'm not arguing, I'm demanding!. And in fact, it have not any sense what you ask if you are saying that none never worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Science argues in this way: All numbers are not <= 5000
    Proof:
    K <= 5000, where K <= 5000
    therefore the subset of numbers from {K = negative infinite to 5000} satisfies this statement.
    So if your K value falls at or below 5000, then this solution will work for you.
    Certainly I doubt if you sometime understood something I have said. It's obvious I was refering that a simple enumeration of cases complying your assertion is not a proof of anything. If Clear fault in one case, Schroth in others.. Chiropractors in other more (do you want to add some more?) it not prove your assertion about never an alternative method worked.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    The forum has a waiver that states:
    "Nonetheless, this is an open public forum, and we caution every member of this community to use common sense and judgment in determining how to use the contacts and information from this center. NSF provides this service as informational only, and does not endorse or take responsibility for any person, statement, or item contained within this center. So, we welcome you to proceed enthusiastically, yet cautiously, in finding the information, and connections you are looking for to make informed healthcare decisions regarding scoliosis and related spinal deformities. To get started, simply click the link below to enter the forum."
    Under a legal point of view I suppose this forum is right, but under an ethical one.. with people not stopping in saying for ever and ever that only (official western) medicine works and in order to supporting that, all the time does categorical assertions without proving.. It would be so much honest a waiver like this:
    we caution about comments done by ignorant people believing in alternative options to those given by the OWMC (Official Western Medical Community). Please not be fool and not pay attention to those kind of non sense comments and take in mind that alternative medicine never worked in other sense that just only a complement to the OWMC solutions.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-24-2013 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #36
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    It could say:

    BE SKEPTICAL! DEMAND EVIDENCE OF EFFICACY!

    REMEMBER! Not wanting surgery does not magically make conservative or alternative treatments automatically exist.

    Bonus question... Why aren't there more Martha Hawes' out there? (Answer will be provided for those who are stumped.)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    I cannot believe you may say something like this..
    Certainly it has not also any sense for me to try to explain you how something that we heard, realy seeming true for us, may lead us to take some decision, a difficult decision we were not sure to take up to heard it, but sure it not care you. You should to know that, you should to know what is to deal with complex situations.. no, I don't know what you should to know or not, I don't know you, I believed that at least in some sense but I was wrong
    Flerc,
    That's a personal statement against me. We've been talking on here for quite awhile and you are one of my favorites to talk to. You are getting frustrated and taking it out on me. That's not fair.

    I DO care about people. This forum is full of good advice. It's also full of quackery. The intelligent person needs to sort through the information and do what they think is best. I've never promoted one treatment over another. I've had so many kinds of alternative treatment for my scoliosis that I can't even count it all. In fact, surgery is one treatment that I have NOT had. I have learned l lot about different treatments by coming here. Before I came here I had never even heard of the Schroth method. I am a person where alternative treatments are all I have in my bag. Even IF I wanted surgery, there is no way for me to get it. I've had several doctors tell me I need it and several tell me that I don't need it. For me it all boils down to money IF I wanted to have the surgery. I can't afford it and my insurance company will not pay for me to see a doctor who agrees that I would benefit from surgery. My current doctor says no, so that's what I'm stuck with - and maybe that's a GOOD thing for me.

    I'm simply stating the obvious. People shouldn't believe everything they read on a forum. They should take away the valuable information and use it to discuss things with their own healthcare practitioner. It would be idiotic to do otherwise.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 02-24-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Bonus question... Why aren't there more Martha Hawes' out there? (Answer will be provided for those who are stumped.)
    If this assertion is true
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery.
    could not be surprising if certainly there are not more Martha Hawes since there never was just only one.. or conservative treatment had nothing to do with her case or it was not a surgical (according surgeon's classification) one.
    The proof of the quoted assertion should to be provided for who did it. You should to demand it!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    If I insisted now also to you to prove the categorical assertions you make or support, is thinking in people confused, not knowing the difference between a ligament and a tendon, as me when I heard for first time about the scoliosis and I have had to take a an extremely difficult decision without enough information.. ever is not enough, but the worst is to have not the minimal knowledge in order to judge the information we are desperating trying to get.. and I'm sure there are many people around the world in that complex situation.. and at least not all of them idiots.. and certainly if it would be the case, it would be even more important to no not confuse them.

    So if I said that non surgical treatments may work, is because I really believe it as I explained why, hundreds of times before and I never said in a categorical way that realy works, as you assert or support the contrary. And the best way to convince about it is saying that never worked.
    So, you is who must to prove your categorical assertions.said or supported by you.
    If I know or not about a succesful case, or why I doubt about your assertion, will not help you to prove what you must to prove.
    At this point I don't know if you are talking to me or Sharon.

    As for me, I don't make any categorical assertions. The only assertions I can make are based on MY OWN personal experience with scoliosis and the treatments that I have had. So here they are:

    Chiropractic didn't work for me. Myofascial release did not work for me. Muscle stimulation did not work for me. Traction did not work for me. Accupuncture did work for some severe muscle pain I was having in my erector spinae muscles. Trigger point injections give me about 40% relief for my pain. Botox gives me about 50% relief from my pain after an initial increase for a couple of weeks. The shoe lift had no effect on my curve, so did not work. An intensive exercise program for the last nine months "may" be contributed to a 5* decrease in my lower curve, so maybe it worked, but it could have been my posture during the x-ray. Follow up x-rays showing continued improvement will be needed to "prove" that the exercise is helping with curve reduction. Deep Muscle Massage did not work for me. A sacroilliac belt did not work for me for pain. Epidural injections have worked for my lower back pain. Physical therapy of many different kinds did not affect my curve so did not work for me. I'm probably missing some other therapies that I've tried and they have not worked either. None of the above therapies could categorically be attributed to having any positive impact on my scoliosis at this time.

    You are free to believe that ALL or SOME of these therapies have worked since my spine is stable. But there's no way to prove that the natural history of MY scoliosis would have been any different absent these therapies. That would be a "belief" not based on scientific evidence. I have not tried Schroth or CLEAR. I've considered going to a Schroth clinic since there is one near where I live. But, based on what I've read on the forum, I chose not to go. That doesn't mean that I base all of my decisions on what forum members say. It means that I sort through the evidence of the efficacy of certain treatments and make my own decisions about my treatment. Does that mean that I will never try Schroth? No, it doesn't. It's just that it is VERY expensive and I don't think that it will, at this point in time, be worth going into debt for a treatment that will have little or no effect on MY curve type.

    You still failed to mention if any treatment has worked on your daughter. If it has, I would honestly like to know. What have YOU tried? What has worked and what has not? Why won't you answer these questions? I am an open book to the therapies that I've tried.

    Tamztom is having wonderful success with his daughters JIS/Chiari 1 malformation. He must be doing something right. He has, thus far, avoided surgery for HIS daughter. What will be the final outcome in her case? We don't know, ...yet. He is documenting EVERYTHING he does. Will his methods work for others? No one knows. Will he publish his findings? I hope so. However, on that point, his success is not PROOF that his methods will work on everyone. It might be enough to get the scientific community to take a harder look at what he's doing, though. He came to the forum seeking insight and took what HE felt was important and made his own plan of attack. Had he listened to the doctors, his daughter would have had at least two surgeries by now. So far she's had none. It's an amazing case!

    I don't like petty arguments for the sake of arguing a point. You are here because your daughter has this horrible affliction. Try some of the stuff you have mentioned on the forum with your daughter if you are convinced that a therapy will work. I realize she's of age, but if you have evidence that is convincing enough, then she might be willing to try it.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    BE SKEPTICAL! DEMAND EVIDENCE OF EFFICACY!
    Also in assertions (veracity) mainly when are categoricals like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery
    Or other (literaly) hundreds similar you may find in this forum.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    At this point I don't know if you are talking to me or Sharon.

    As for me, I don't make any categorical assertions.
    To you. You are supporting hers categorical assertions

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Flerc,

    I know it feels like engaging an argument is the only way to counter it, but I'd strongly disagree (and I study online communities for a living). You're diluting your own information by doing this constant compare and contrast. If you want to see how to just create a clear storyline without muddying it with all this back and forth, go and look at Dingo's threads. In the start it's nothing but endless argument, and then he gets smart and just spends his time talking about what he wants to talk about, and the storyline becomes very clear. Anyone can drop in and find good info, because he simply does not got engaged with the back and forth, and so it just drops off the thread.

    Not only is his storyline clear, but he now spends 100% of his time posting about what interests him, instead of just knee-jerking responding to the same old arguments.

    The internet if chock full of awful information. Really, just awful. You are *never* going to protect parents from running into it. All you can do is create a clear *alternate* storyline that they can follow. These kinds of discussions are not that storyline. Figure out what it is you want parents to know, and just make it easy for them to find it. Start a topic, post to it regularly, talk about only what interests you, and don't waste time responding to rebuttals. Make them go somewhere else for a foothold.

    My advice for the day
    I know I'm not Flerc, but thank you for that. I tend to get sucked into these debates because I am trying to defuse a situation. I absolutely hate seeing people butting heads and not getting along. I'm afraid I only made things worse. And on taking your advice, I do have my "own" thread where I post things that pretty much pertain only to me. There are a few takers that read it. But it's mostly a place where I can go to put down what I'm doing at the moment and how I feel about it.

    Thanks again!
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    To you. You are supporting hers categorical assertions
    No, actually, I'm not. I'm trying to explain how the scientific community works in regards to research and why. On this point I do agree with Sharon. However, I just reminded you of a case that "was" surgical and is being treated non-surgically. Read Tamztom's thread. It's amazing!

    I'm adding this to my above statement. I don't know what categorical assertions I'm supposedly supporting, so I can't dogmatically say, "I'm not supporting them." Sharon and I don't see eye to eye on everything as well. However, she is a researcher and she does know how the scientific method works. I've also worked in research during my undergrad years. You don't get funding for trying to prove something isn't going to work. Also, you are very vague about what therapies you are talking about. Are you talking about ALL non-surgical therapies?
    Last edited by rohrer01; 02-24-2013 at 10:56 PM.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    No, actually, I'm not.
    Yes, actually you are. Read your previous posts. Not only because this, but how many times did you said that has not any sense to demand a proof about her categorical assertion 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery'? If you think so because it cannot be proved is her problem not mine and instead of saying that for me you should have to said her that she should not do at least in this forum such kind of assertions. This is what I'm doing, as everybody here should to do.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-24-2013 at 11:44 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Are you talking about ALL non-surgical therapies?
    Yes, I suppose she means that (any conservative treatment)

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