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Thread: Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariaf View Post
    Where did I say that all of those few cases were spontaneous reversions?

    You seem insistent on not listening to what anyone else is saying. Re-read my post stating that what Rohrer said made perfect sense and explains why one or two anecdotal cases mean nothing. I never said "one or two anecdotal cases of spontaneous reversion". YOU said that.

    Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have been nothing but polite thus far and yet you find the need to be sarcastic, while in the same breath you want to slap Sharon's hand for what she posts. You are not making a good case for yourself.
    Certainly it seems you agree with all that Pooka1 say (just only see her signature) and Rohrer was talking about spontaneous reversions. It seemed enough evidence for me to suppose you was suggesting that for any particular treatment, any success story was not a real cure. But certainly, all what both you said not necessarily imply this was your intention.
    So if you were not suggesting that any particular method, never REALLY worked, accept please my sincere apologies.
    Also take in mind please that some confused parent, not knowing yet what really scoliosis means, may also misinterpret what we say if we are not clear enough .

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    People have to be actually sitting at the big table of evidence-driven thought to be able to reach me to slap me. I am still waiting for Flerc to join me at the big table. That's why I asked him earlier if he thought any of his admonitions to me were having any effect on me. Clearly they are not. That said, I would love to be edified by Flerc or anyone who ponies up evidence to the big table.
    Certainly I believe you will continue doing your work here, that's why I said I was wasting my time.
    Of course you know the effect that may have in someone new in scoliosis, to read in the biggest forum of the world something like 'according my limited understanding, I conclude that you should to do what your surgeon said you, because although there is not any kind of guarantees, I think that nobody may give you a best advice. since I believe that nobody has a greater knowledge' and what a very different impact if he read something as 'people proving with things that were not indicated by their surgeon, as alternative treatments are fool, ignorant or desperates'.

    You know that is bad to do categorical assertions here, except you are absolutely sure are facts and you can prove it. So YOU must to present evidence of all that kind of assertions you ever and ever does when you detected that someone is saying something that at least in some subtle way may be against to what the official western medical community say.
    So I'm waiting the evidence about what you repeated and repeated... hundreds, thousands of times about there is not evidence (that is, if you look for it you'll never find it because not exists) that something not indicated by the community have worked.
    If you was not wanting to say that, you should to reedit your posts. If you reedit only those saying that, you may finish before next century. Hurry up!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    that's why I said I was wasting my time.
    We agree on that.

    Anyone who isn't asking for evidence from alternative treatment purveyors is wasting their time and likely their money also. I blame the science education and the non-scientific forces in society for devaluing science and evidence.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    We agree on that.

    Anyone who isn't asking for evidence from alternative treatment purveyors is wasting their time and likely their money also.
    Who are you to say that someone is wasting their time or money if not does what you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    We agree on that.
    I blame the science education and the non-scientific forces in society for devaluing science and evidence.
    This is exactly what you not stop to do. I'm not sure whom to blame.. surely the owners of this forum to allow someone demanding a blind faith in one community and saying that people without that faith not understand what Science is. If you would have a basic idea about what Science is, you should to know that blind faith has nothing to do with it... and of course also not has to do with doing categorical assertion without proving them.
    So.. I continue waiting for the evidence that never an alternative method worked.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    So.. I continue waiting for the evidence that never an alternative method worked.
    You will wait forever because you are asking the wrong question.

    You have to ask the right questions to get anywhere in this game.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Sorry Rohrer, it not seems that for me.
    Sure I do. You are saying that surgery can't possibly be the only option and there must be other therapies that can work. I will tell you that surgeons do not just jump to surgery. They try many other alternatives first and use surgery as a last option. I was sent to a dietician, physical therapist, put into traction, given electrical muscular stimulation, and fitted for a shoe lift as a teen. Now I receive injections to break up the muscle spasms, Botox to weaken overly contracted muscles and steroid injections to reduce inflammation. When I went to see my surgeon last week, they gave me a questionnaire that asked what treatments I've already tried. The list was for about 10 to 15 therapies including things like chiropractic, yoga, accupuncture, bracing, massage etc. Not all of these are considered "mainstream" therapies, yet surgeons still consider these therapies as legitimate treatments.

    My secondary curve actually improved 5* from the exercising that I've been doing over the last year. It went from the high 30's to the low 30's. As we have learned, 30* is NOT protective against progression. So, yes, other therapies can help.

    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Certainly I'm not sure which are the practitioners that I often talk about and less sure if none of them not published their findings and even less sure that Clear may be one of those practiocioners I often talk about..
    I'm referring to the many alternative therapies that you have looked into and mentioned throughout the last couple of years that I've been on the forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Of course.. do you know someone doing that, working with non surgical treatments? In what kind of cases? I believe I cannot say I don't know noone, even in serious cases, but even supposing you cannot find noone doing that at least with cases as yours, does it necessarily implies that non surgical treatments cannot work for you as some people here are trying to convince at everyone reading this forum?
    No. I'm saying that they don't collect the proper data to present it as evidence to prove that their way works. A lot of alternative therapists are not interested in collecting data, let alone present it to the scientific community.

    For the sake of argument, let's say a tribal shaman does his ritualistic "healing" on people in his tribe for a certain disease. This shaman has a very high success rate and most people with this particular illness get better. Is he collecting data to prove that his method works? No. He will probably tell any outsider that the "spirits" did the healing. Then an outside "scientist" is allowed in to see what the shaman is doing. He sees that the shaman has a concoction of herbs. So the scientists runs a bunch of tests on these particular herbs and finds physical evidence as to why this remedy works on this particular disease. The chemicals from these herbs may be incorporated into a "modern" drug for the cure or treatment of a particular ailment. This DOES happen. It happened in the case of willow bark and the discovery of aspirin to help with pain, fever and inflammation.



    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Good to know the scoliosis is solved for your son. How many degrees did he has? Sure not so many. Of course I know about spontaneous cures, but never in big curves.
    He was close to 20* at about 8 years old.



    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Do you believe that I may think a particular method works because was useful in insignificant or mild curves?
    No. My intention is not to question your intelligence. I gave my son as an example because anyone could use his case and argue that because it was "caught early" their treatment worked.



    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Depending on what it means for you, you may say that none method really works. Is what I said in a large thread. But it not means that none method never REALLY worked.
    Again, I think that all people are asking for here is PROOF that a particular treatment works predictably. A random case here and there is not proof.


    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Why not, if non surgical methods not work? They not work because surgeons are not saying that may work and they never worked in just only one case. Only someone stupid, ignorant or desperate may try with something else.
    You know some people are saying that, the first step is convincing that never worked in just only one case.
    If a non-surgical method worked, people would be all over it. I don't think that the majority of humankind is pro-surgery for everything. People invest much money into therapies to avoid surgery. They do it because they are trying to avoid surgery. Some will reason that if it comes down to having surgery, they at least know that they have tried everything else first and surgery was a last resort. This idea is comforting to many people.

    However, the conflicting idea on this forum is, "Why subject a child to treatments that don't work, only to end up putting them through surgery in the long run?" This ideology is very strong here because so many of these alternate therapies are extremely painful to the child both physically and emotionally. Look at the case of Kat (the young girl who frequently posts here). She's pretty upset that her parents wouldn't let her have the surgery until her curve got so bad that she had to have a longer fusion with less correction than if they had listened to the doctor/surgeon to begin with. That girl went through torture with a brace that was totally ineffective. THAT'S what a lot of this boils down to.
    Be happy!
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    So.. I continue waiting for the evidence that never an alternative method worked.
    The statement needs to say, "I continue waiting for the evidence that alternative methods do work."

    There are impossible things that scientists don't waste time and money on. One of them is researching methods to prove that they don't work. You could never get a volunteer to sign up for a study in which someone was trying to prove something doesn't work. There are infinite things that don't work and finite things that do work. Scientist, by default, prove that certain methods don't work in their quest to find things that DO work.

    NO ONE would EVER get funding for a project thats main objective is to show that a particular treatment will fail UNLESS there are published article/s that say the treatment does work. On this point, the researchers had better have some pretty strong data to suggest that their hypothesis is right AND they had better have a better solution to offer.
    Be happy!
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    The statement needs to say, "I continue waiting for the evidence that alternative methods do work."
    No, the statement must to say exactly what it said: I continue waiting for the evidence that never an alternative method worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post

    There are impossible things that scientists don't waste time and money on. One of them is researching methods to prove that they don't work. You could never get a volunteer to sign up for a study in which someone was trying to prove something doesn't work. There are infinite things that don't work and finite things that do work. Scientist, by default, prove that certain methods don't work in their quest to find things that DO work.

    NO ONE would EVER get funding for a project thats main objective is to show that a particular treatment will fail UNLESS there are published article/s that say the treatment does work. On this point, the researchers had better have some pretty strong data to suggest that their hypothesis is right AND they had better have a better solution to offer.
    You should to explain that to Pooka1, not to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery.
    This is one of the last ocurrences when I googled "There is no evidence" Pooka1 with this site as domain.. if you think is not good to represent what I means, you have other hundreds to choice someone better.
    But certainly is good enough for me. Certainly she is saying in other words 'There is no evidence any non surgical treatment worked'.. so, you should understand why I was asking what I asked.

    Certainly, she is right in using one or other statement to say the same. May you say a method realy worked if it not was useful to avoid a surgery? In any case you should to talk about 'Complementary' instead of 'Alternative' methods. It is like saying that Martial Arts are great self defense practices, but only to fight against weaker, older and lighter people..
    I hope you understand now why I continue waiting for the evidence about what this forum not stop to proclaim to the world.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    No, the statement must to say exactly what it said: I continue waiting for the evidence that never an alternative method worked.
    No researcher does work on this premise. So you will never get a proof because you are asking the impossible. There are probably an infinite number of treatments with absolutely zero data collection. IF you found an alternative treatment that worked on a large curve, then you would have to be able to reproduce those results on other patients in a predictable way in order to prove that it was the treatment that worked.

    Have you tried any alternative (for lack of a better word) treatments with your daughter and had success in reducing her curve by a significant amount?
    Be happy!
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post

    You should to explain that to Pooka1, not to me.


    Sharon already knows this. That is why she told you that you would never get an answer, because you have to ask the right questions.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
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  11. #26
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    I'll try with an example. I'll give you the correct answer for me.

    Suppose your friend says all the time there is no evidence about any martial artist defeating someone heavier, younger and stronger.
    Does he is only saying that he does not know about just only one case (A) or he is saying nobody knows about one case? (B)
    B

    Suppose some asociation giving anabolic to people needing a self defense capacity says as your friend that there is no evidence.
    Does your friend is right promoting what the asociation is doing because he know they are saying to don't know about any evidence?
    No

    Would it have any sense to demand him to prove that certainly is not any evidence, even if it would be hard to him or to the asociation to prove it?
    Yes

    May your friend be so sure that there is not any evidence even he knows the asociation cannot prove it?
    No

    Would be right that the asociation and your friend says only they don't know about any evidence instead of saying there is no evidence?
    Yes

    Would not it sounds different for people not knowing so much about those issues and trusting so much in the asociation?
    Yes.

    Would be logic if your friend says that martial arts are unuseful because (as he ever says) there is no evidence..
    No

  12. #27
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    You must to be careful about what you say in a forum. Mainly if it is the bigest of the world. If you like to does categorical assertions when you have philosophic discusions while taking a coffe in a bar with your friends, nobody may blame you about anything even if those assertions has not any sense or cannot be proven, but is absolutely different if you make it here.

    If someone here is doing a categorical assertions, mainly if never stop to do it, then must to prove it or reedit it..
    If you are justifying some categorical assertions done by other here without proving it, is the same as if you do it or even worse.
    So you must to prove now that there is not evidence about just only one case in the world of a non surgical treatment avoiding a surgery.

    You are not having a funny talk with your friends. Thousands of people around the world may believe that your categorical assertion is true and it may lead them to take an extremely important and probably irreversible decision.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-24-2013 at 08:29 AM.

  13. #28
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    You are asking the wrong questions. Scientists don't waste time disproving the boatloads of nonsense out there that lay people (i.e., non surgeons) dream up. If an alternative treatment purveyor thinks their treatment works then they need to pony up the evidence. They never do. There's a reason for that.

    Look how hard it is to show bracing and PT work. And that is with people who are trained in doing research.

    Now map that on to people with no training in research or science and who are making money from these treatments.

    The reason these alternative treatments persist is because they actually don't need evidence. Clear is technically correct that they don't need evidence. The reason is they are dealing with people who are scared and don't want the surgery. And they don't understand the surgical literature. Chiros have no training in surgery and so shouldn't be talking about it. But they do all the time. It's sufficient just to not want surgery for people to waste thousands of dollars on treatments that have never been shown to work. Remember Hope404? She documented her daughter's treatment with Clear that didn't help her daughter at all. If these alternative treatments worked we would know it by now. Even Schroth is still a fringe treatment in Germany and surgery goes on as ever. Ask yourself why.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #29
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    Is this a proof for you about what you says:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery.
    Fortunately science argues in a different way. Otherwise we would be reading validations like this:

    all numbers are <= 5000
    Proof:
    1 <5000
    340<5000
    .
    .
    4000<5000
    Then assertion is true.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-24-2013 at 08:58 AM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Is this a proof for you about what you says:
    Fortunately science argues in a different way. Otherwise we would be reading validations like this:

    all numbers are <= 5000
    Proof:
    1 <5000
    340<5000
    .
    .
    4000<5000
    Then assertion is true.
    Science argues in this way: All numbers are not <= 5000
    Proof:
    K <= 5000, where K <= 5000
    therefore the subset of numbers from {K = negative infinity to 5000} satisfies this statement.
    So if your K value falls at or below 5000, then this solution will work for you.

    Are you arguing for the sake of argument or is there a therapy out there that you know works? If you are withholding this information then YOU are the one doing the great injustice to the people reading this forum. Thus, I ask you again: Have you found a therapy that has reduced your daughter's curve to a significant degree that she is willing to undergo? If you continue to not answer the question or the answer is no, then why are you arguing science?

    The forum has a waiver that states:
    "Nonetheless, this is an open public forum, and we caution every member of this community to use common sense and judgment in determining how to use the contacts and information from this center. NSF provides this service as informational only, and does not endorse or take responsibility for any person, statement, or item contained within this center. So, we welcome you to proceed enthusiastically, yet cautiously, in finding the information, and connections you are looking for to make informed healthcare decisions regarding scoliosis and related spinal deformities. To get started, simply click the link below to enter the forum."

    Bold mine.


    With that in mind, the only idiotic people out there are the ones who base their decisions solely on what people post on this forum.

    No disrespect intended, Flerc. It just seems that you are arguing for the sake of arguing without any meaningful information to give. You seem to want to rip the scientific method apart and replace it with nothing. It's not a perfect world.

    There are innumerable treatment options for scoliosis, thus the non-surgical area of the forum. Surgery is a treatment "option" that results in the straightest spines. Surgeons do not guarantee a pain free outcome. The risks of this surgery are great and include death. People are made aware of this before they undergo this procedure. Yes, you are right, surgery is a treatment option that is undoable. But, then again, so are other options that allow the spine to twist so severely that the most skilled physician can not save the person. That happens, too. Surgery for severe scoliosis saves more lives than it takes. But as with any option, buyer beware, you "may" end up in more pain. That's why we all need to make informed decisions when it comes to our own healthcare and that of our children.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 02-25-2013 at 12:26 AM.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
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