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Thread: Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    yes! Ding! Ding! Ding!



    I agree Dingo is intelligent. It's not a question of intelligence but one of specific knowledge. Big difference.
    Supposing as your said he has a limited specific knowledge (donít you) which is the problem? Why he should to be aggressed?

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    As always, you are correct. Here we are (intelligently, helpfully) completely trashing Dingo's thread. Sigh. How that man manages to get any work done here completely gobsmacks me. He must mediate himself into a pure light Zen state before every post
    You are not forced to reply in his thread. You also may reply in the way as Iím doing. If all of us would do it, we would not favoring her work. OF COURSE ALL WE MUST TO FIGHT AGAINST HER IMMORAL WORK but in the right place, that is, in this thread!.

  3. #258
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    I am going to post a link to very sweet post from a parent new to the forum looking for help with her child, and then text of the post below:

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...471#post150471

    "This is the first day I have not cried while discussing my son's scoliosis. It's because I feel the kindness and support from all of you-- you are giving me strength."

    It's so sweet, it almost makes me want to cry. But it also makes me feel how completely different my experience and the experience of other parents looking at anything other than surgery, has been.

    I know that we non-surgical folk seem argumentative. You only have to take a look at any of these topics to see that, geez, we just seem to want to fight all the time. Heavens, what unpleasant people. And the surgical folk, even those who might be arguing with us, seem, at the least, well-rounded. They might argue in a thread or two, but they have lots and lots of friendly interactions all over the forum. Here they are sharing their child's recovery experience, there they are recommending a surgeon. So, it just looks like the non-surgical folk are sort of provoking these people who are otherwise perfectly nice.

    But, we argue because we have no place - not a thread, not even a few posts in a row - where we can talk, where we can share *our* experiences, without being argued with, at the least, or being told that we are idiots and monsters, at the most. We're not thin-skinned, we're not unpleasant, we're just trying to feel that sense of place that the rest of you feel. That sigh of relief to talk to someone who gets what we're going through, who can help, who can offer advice. We don't know people offline we can talk to - this is it. This is the one place we can come.

    Is there not *one* discussion, not one unbroken series of five or six posts *anywhere* on this whole big forum where we can start to develop a sense of place amongst ourselves?

    I assure you that, if the tables were turned, if the anti-conservative treatment crowd found that every time you turned to the person next to you and talked about your child's upcoming surgery I interrupted to repeat the risks, to tell you that you were uninformed just by choosing surgery, that you were lying to your child about their life time risks, that you were personally ill-fitted to even decide if surgery was right, or any of the other things any of us has been told or been called, you'd discover that the surgical folk can be pretty darn argumentative too.

    [In response to huge misunderstanding, clarifying that this post refers only to stridently anti-non-surgical posters. *NOT* talking about the forum in general]
    Last edited by hdugger; 05-23-2013 at 08:03 PM.

  4. #259
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    (sotto voce, stage left) "The man's a hot head, and the woman seems a little over dramatic"

  5. #260
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    As usual, well said hdugger,

    I am glad for that mother and believe it should be handled in that mature manner for everyone, whether they are searching for surgical or non-surgical solutions here on this forum.

    Unfortunately for me, my experience was anything but pleasant. When I started to come across posts from Dingo, Tamztom and others, I was relieved to read about what they were doing . . . . only to be crying a few posts later when Pooka1 would so mercilessly appear and play her self-serving games. This went on for a couple of years as I read the non-surgical threads. I soon learned to put on blinders when I would come across posts from Pooka1. I'd avert my eyes and skip right over. Now, one of the advantages of being a new member is that I am able to use the "ignore" button.

    This blog has been created to HELP people who are dealing with scoliosis regardless of whether they choose to try bracing, surgery, Schroth or other physical therapy "exercises". I am sure it is NOT meant for people to recklessly parade around like it is their personal playground.
    "The most deadly action you can take is to internalize someone else's negativity, for once you start to believe it, youíre sunk."

  6. #261
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    Responding here to post over in Dingo's thread

    Tamztom's thread has a different drumbeat, meant to make clear that he and his daughter are doing something that no one else would be able to do (i.e., the "unique patient" approach, used on Martha Hawes, et al):

    I picked a couple of pages - here's a summary of a series of posts

    * His daughter is extraordinary, unique, can do things that no other human being can do. (Read: this won't work for other kids)
    * His daughter has JIS and not AIS. JIS patients are just able to do things that AIS kids can't (Read: this won't work for most kinds)
    * And even - god help me, and even - what if someone got Dengue Fever and was too weak to go on exercising (Read: this won't work (I guess!!!) for most people because Dengue Fever is really surprisingly prevalent)
    * And then a repeat of proven-wrong error about Martha Hawes exercise regime - claiming it is "more effort then most people can give". When this was first raised years ago, I think people claimed she was spending hours and hours every day, I actually wrote to her, and she told me she had spent more time at first but spent no more then an hour a day. I posted that correction, but the incorrect version just keeps creeping back into discussions.

    and that's just two pages in that topic.

    It's more subtle than in other topics. I suspect that if Tom's daughter had AIS, it would require a more full frontal approach. But, it's there.

    Again *every* topic. Different approaches in different places. But *every* topic about non-surgical approaches, you'll always hear the same drumbeat.

    [In response to huge misunderstanding, clarifying that this post refers only to stridently anti-non-surgical posters. *NOT* talking about the forum in general]
    Last edited by hdugger; 05-23-2013 at 06:46 PM.

  7. #262
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    I sort of picture it like a body fighting an infection. If the infection is more minor, like say a cold, then the body just tries to surround the invading cells and neutralize them. That's sort of how I see Tamztom's thread. All of his posts are just surrounded by this neutralizing material, so that the rest of the body (forum) doesn't get infected.

    But, if the body gets invaded by something more serious, like, say, Dingo Fever (I hear it's going around) then it has to run a huge fever, surround the offending organism with pus, and then just expel the whole foul thing.

    [In response to huge misunderstanding, clarifying that this post refers only to stridently anti-non-surgical posters. *NOT* talking about the forum in general]
    Last edited by hdugger; 05-24-2013 at 11:05 PM.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    On another note, here's a funny, funny series of posts. So, before Dingo made the mistake of straying into armchair biochemistry, he posted about exercise (Torso Rotation). I started at the beginning of the thread, when the body was still fighting it as if it might be a minor infection. In this case, the body has not yet tried to eject the whole Dingo, but just the one study that he's relying on. At first, it's just that there's not enough follow-up. Then the report is called "the worst I've ever seen published in terms of extravagantly going beyond the results and wildly speculating without much if any ground to stand on." Then, the authors are discredited "Physical therapists are not trained in research." Then, finally, it's time to call the editors "That paper is embarrassing. I am considering writing to the editors about it making the same points I made here. I'll report back if I do that and if I get a response. Exercise therapy might work but you wouldn't be able to determine that from that study design." What is this report? What uneducated PT is writing this embarrassing report that must now warrant a call to the editors. Why, it's our own Kevin McIntire! Stupid armchair researcher!

    Sorry, that's just so, so funny.
    That's true. That was before I realized how hard it is to research in this area. I told him that. I later posted a meta-analysis that singled out Dr. McIntire's study as the only unbiased one. So that paper is actually a top paper in that field. It's just that field is very, very different than other fields which are easier to do controlled studies. I apologize for not being born knowing this like some people.

    And by the way, Hawes needs to retract her paper stating she did thing for many hours a day for several years if that is incorrect. Here is a site to do that..

    http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #264
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    Yeah all that criticism is wrong. Those torso rotation studies are easy to do. Torso rotation is valid and works. No need for fusion surgery.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #265
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    This may (or may not!) explain what is going on.... wiki!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_skepticism

    Scientific skepticism ( also spelled scepticism) is the practice of questioning whether claims are supported by empirical research and have reproducibility, as part of a methodological norm pursuing "the extension of certified knowledge".[1] For example, Robert K. Merton asserts that all ideas must be tested and are subject to rigorous, structured community scrutiny (see Mertonian norms).[2]
    Scientific skeptics attempt to evaluate claims based on verifiability and falsifiability and discourage accepting claims on faith or anecdotal evidence.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #266
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    So, series of posts just to say that it won't look the same every time. Sometimes it's subtle and helpful-seeming, and sometimes it's all-out war. But, it's always there. For those of us infecting the forum with non-surgical ideas, it's always, always there. And, at last, I've found a good use for all the infection research And, I've proved the point that us non-surgical folk are just always complaining about something.

    Oh, look, I'm surrounded by neutralizing posts. Is it getting hot in here?
    Last edited by hdugger; 05-22-2013 at 09:36 PM.

  12. #267
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    Some Richard Feynman quotes that are relevant here...

    The scientist has a lot of experience with ignorance and doubt and uncertainty, and this experience is of very great importance, I think.
    If we take everything into account, not only what the ancients knew, but all of what we know today that they didn't know, then I think that we must frankly admit that we do not know.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.
    The last quote is what I try to keep in the front of my brain at all times in my life.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #268
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    OK, I'm done for a bit, Flerc. Time to go back and actually get through the research a little bit.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Oh, look, I'm surrounded by neutralizing posts. Is it getting hot in here?
    I thought you stated on at least 5 bazillion posts that you have me blocked. How would you know what I'm posting?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Responding here to post over in Dingo's thread

    Tamztom's thread has a different drumbeat, meant to make clear that he and his daughter are doing something that no one else would be able to do (i.e., the "unique patient" approach, used on Martha Hawes, et al):

    I picked a couple of pages - here's a summary of a series of posts

    * His daughter is extraordinary, unique, can do things that no other human being can do. (Read: this won't work for other kids)
    * His daughter has JIS and not AIS. JIS patients are just able to do things that AIS kids can't (Read: this won't work for most kinds)
    * And even - god help me, and even - what if someone got Dengue Fever and was too weak to go on exercising (Read: this won't work (I guess!!!) for most people because Dengue Fever is really surprisingly prevalent)
    * And then a repeat of proven-wrong error about Martha Hawes exercise regime - claiming it is "more effort then most people can give". When this was first raised years ago, I think people claimed she was spending hours and hours every day, I actually wrote to her, and she told me she had spent more time at first but spent no more then an hour a day. I posted that correction, but the incorrect version just keeps creeping back into discussions.

    and that's just two pages in that topic.

    It's more subtle than in other topics. I suspect that if Tom's daughter had AIS, it would require a more full frontal approach. But, it's there.

    Again *every* topic. Different approaches in different places. But *every* topic about non-surgical approaches, you'll always hear the same drumbeat.
    I suspect Tamztom would strongly object to the argument that what he is doing cannot be replicated (in adults and/or kids), as well as the argument that AIS would be more difficult to correct than JIS. At least one adult on this forum, foofer, has reported great results after several months of corrective work, and as far as I know she was one week away from surgery. I hope she will write more about her experience on this forum despite its often hostile atmosphere.

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