Alternative to surgery? Chiropractor?

[Spyros]

And who knows who are surgical? You?

Actually flerc, before my meeting with my surgeon (2 months ago), I was able to understand that I needed surgery for sure. I didnt know my degrees and i had not been in a doctor for my spine for about 8 years. I did a long of research through internet and i found that the patients who have scoliosis > than 45* the surgery is a must. My body was saying to me that i have scolios > 50*, Therefore, i just understood that I need surgery and i book an appointment with my surgeon (to another city) right away.

[Spyros]

I started Chiropractic in 1986 and had pretty good results for pain control. Through the years we looked at my curves after trying bracing, and after various therapy’s with x-rays. I had a slight reduction after wearing my brace but it didn’t hold. You see, that’s the trick. Park a truck on your rib hump and you will staighten out for sure, but it just wont hold. I also tried electostim on the weak muscles and didn’t have ANY luck with that....

I have been to about 12 different Chiros through the years, each with their different techniques and moves. From the start they all told me that one day I would need surgery, and I probably had twin 55’s in 1986. When I hit my 40’s things ended up getting worse and the sciatica started. Chiro is useless for sciatica, absolutely useless. I had 4 herniated lumbar discs and degeneration, so you can see why it wouldn’t work. Swimming in the ocean helped and it was free.

Chiropractic adjustments are worth about $100 per session....Vax-D is worth about $200 and that includes the works....For $500 day, I would fly to Switzerland and party like a rock star. I’m getting too old for that, but you know what I’m saying.

Chances are that you can last for quite some time depending on pain, but if your curve keeps progressing, you have to be careful since large curves mean trickier surgeries.... and you can have lung and heart problems....

Beware of people promising miracles....save your money.

I’m interested in knowing exactly what your surgeon said......Did he give you a timeframe for surgery?

Ed

Thanks Ed for sharing your story to me and i feel sorry for you for what you been through all these years.

2500 euro includes some X-rays (he want his own).

Now about my surgeon, I met him 2 months ago and though the x-rays, that got the same day, he ended up i have 68* top and 48* bot and i have lot of flexibility on my spine. Thus, i have even more possibilities for a successful surgery and recovery. And we book my surgery date for the beginning of March. These days i m waiting a call back for the specific date of surgery!

[flerc]

No not me of course. Surgeons know.

There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery.

There is a great difference between evidence and known/published cases and anyway, if surgeons knows that as you say, it would be really very simple. Even it would be unnecessary to see a surgeon to know it. They say that every curve above 50° need surgery. How you may be so sure they are right?

[Pooka1]

They say that every curve above 50° need surgery.

Who says this? I have never seen anyone who knows what they are talking about say this.

What about the curves in adults that have hung at about 50* of decades? There are 2-3 examples in this forum of that. Do those need surgery if no pain?

I think you are generalizing the observation that GROWING CHILDREN with curves > 50* almost always need surgery to the entire set of patients of any age and any condition. You can't do that.

[flerc]

I'm not saying you said that, I'm saying surgeons says that and you are absolutly sure they are right in all what they says.
Certainly many of them talk about >45° as Spyros found. As he did, you may found tons of sites in the net saying that and of course, maybe not in a direct way but it was written by surgeons.

[titaniumed]

Thanks Ed for sharing your story to me and i feel sorry for you for what you been through all these years.

You know that it doesn’t bother me. I think back about all the pain and hardship I went through and since its in the past, thats a good thing. I was fortunate that I was able to hang in there so long. Scoliosis changes our lives, our direction, our paths......I have adapted and don’t have any mental hang-ups with scoliosis and I’m just glad to be alive and functioning just fine.

Are you prepared for surgery? We never are, but had to ask.

Do you know what levels he will fuse? Did he show you where the cuts were going to be?

Do you live with your parents or have a support team of close relatives or friends that will help out?

Do you have any x-rays you could post here? Would love to see them....

Are you in any pain?

Ed

[Spyros]

You know that it doesn’t bother me. I think back about all the pain and hardship I went through and since its in the past, thats a good thing. I was fortunate that I was able to hang in there so long. Scoliosis changes our lives, our direction, our paths......I have adapted and don’t have any mental hang-ups with scoliosis and I’m just glad to be alive and functioning just fine.

Are you prepared for surgery? We never are, but had to ask.

Do you know what levels he will fuse? Did he show you where the cuts were going to be?

Do you live with your parents or have a support team of close relatives or friends that will help out?

Do you have any x-rays you could post here? Would love to see them....

Are you in any pain?

Ed

Ofc i m not ready. I dont know what to do before my surgery. If u have any advise and time i would love to hear them.

Unfortunately I have not any idea about where my fuse's level will be, neither my surgeon showed me were it going to be. Guess I would know at my pre-op day. But he told that during my surgery he will do some kind of plastic on my fusion. ( though i dont mind)

I dont live in the same house with my parents, I live with my future wife who i know that she will treat me very well . Also i know whenever i ask help from my parents, they would run to me regardless the time. And i have some good friends too.

I do have x-rays and i ll try to upload them later on when i ll figure out which is the best way to be clean for you, so as to watch them better.

Yes i am in pain several times per day, even when i m sitting or laying to a sofa or bed.

Thanks for the questions again!

[Spyros]

So i took my X-rays photos on my PC's screen!

Here u can see my 5 X-rays:

Straight Position.jpg
Bent to the Right.jpg
Bent to the Left.jpg
Side Position.jpg
Bottom.jpg

[titaniumed]

Well, I have to say that you are a surgical candidate for sure.....and chiropractic will only help with pain, not straighten curves. You do have some good curves. If I were to guess, you will have a long fusion like mine T2-T4 down to L3. You need to ask this question, its important. Will surgery be from the back only or will he have to go in from the front or side?

Who is your surgeon? Did he study in the US? I ask because you want to have a “scoliosis” surgeon and not just an orthopedic surgeon. Scoliosis surgeons specialize in scoliosis, they should be the only ones doing these surgeries.

When did you find out about your scoliosis? and have you ever worn a brace?

You do realize what fusion is about correct? Once you fuse, it becomes a solid bony mass that does not bend anymore. You cannot undo this process.

Have you told your surgeon “Yes” lets do this? Did you give him the green light?

Ed

[Spyros]

Well, I have to say that you are a surgical candidate for sure.....and chiropractic will only help with pain, not straighten curves. You do have some good curves. If I were to guess, you will have a long fusion like mine T2-T4 down to L3. You need to ask this question, its important. Will surgery be from the back only or will he have to go in from the front or side?

Who is your surgeon? Did he study in the US? I ask because you want to have a “scoliosis” surgeon and not just an orthopedic surgeon. Scoliosis surgeons specialize in scoliosis, they should be the only ones doing these surgeries.

When did you find out about your scoliosis? and have you ever worn a brace?

You do realize what fusion is about correct? Once you fuse, it becomes a solid bony mass that does not bend anymore. You cannot undo this process.

Have you told your surgeon “Yes” lets do this? Did you give him the green light?

Ed

I saw your fusion its pretty big yes. I hope i dont have to make all my back at least not the bottom one. The surgeon didnt say anything about front or side fusion and i didnt ask him.

My surgeon is Dr. Panagiotis Soukakos, he is 62 years old with a lot of experience on many medical sectors. He is professor and president at the best hospital in orthopedic. Is one of the best (if not the best) orthopedist in Greece who has been at the head of any important and difficult surgery. He has specialize in many things. Such as scoliosis (seminars and classes in US), welding ends (he was the first one in Greece) and many others. He is making lot of speeches, which many doctors from different countries coming just for that reason. and many things yet that dont come on my mind.

I found out about my scoliosis when i was 15 years old. Then i was going to an P.T. for 1-2 years and i finaly ended up wearing a kind of brace for 1 year.. My doctor and p.t. here never refered a surgery. After that i just let it go and i focused on my studies and my military duties. I didnt have problems all that period of time until now...

Yes i do realize it.. the only thing comes in my mind all the time is my flexibility.

I did say yes to my surgeon. I m having surgery at the beginning of March and these days i m waiting a call from him to book the specific date of surgery. (less than 1 month!!)

[flerc]

Wov!! What a vertiginous change of direction! I wrote something about manipulation and other issues, but of course it would be useless now for you.
I hope surgery will be good for you.. also I hope you understand I never figured you was deciding between visiting that chiropractor and fusion.

Good luck.

Spyros, I wrote that because I felt something bad because if I would have realized you was only considering those 2 options, I would have recommended you to visit the chiropractor. Nobody without knowing what he does (does he has a site in the net?) may be sure he is not able to reduce some significants degrees even in few sessions if your structure have some different kinds of unbalances and is not so much flexible and probabbly it would have make you feel better and encouraged to add some actions in your life thinking in your improved back. I'm suspicious of expensive professional, but who knows..
Of course in the worst case, you would have not those 10000E, but yes the option of surgery as now, but of course only you may know all the facts leading you to take this important decision.
Sincerely I hope it will be the best for you.

[titaniumed]

Yes, this was a quick change of direction....and making a surgical decision is a critical decision.

Patients need to be informed and should know what to expect......many are surprised and possibly let down when something happens they don’t expect. Things can happen that are beyond even the best of surgeons, it can be beyond their control as the body is complicated and we are all different.

I guess one of the main things we worry about is our flexibility, or lack of. I have a thread in my signature with photos of me that show some of the ways I can bend and twist. I consider myself lucky.....some are not as fortunate as me. For former brace wearers, at least we know or have some idea what we can expect. Each lumbar level articulates approx 20 degrees which is quite a bit of movement, usually the lowest levels are spared in younger patients. These unfused levels can wear out faster sitting under a fusion mass, usually around 20 years so future revision surgery has to be expected at some point in the future.....Leaving just the lowest level L5-S1 unfused is not wise. Results are not good with this scenario.

The next thing that we worry about is the pain. It hurts. Major deformity surgery de-rotates and straightens the spine, moves all our soft tissues, muscles, ligaments, nerves etc, and can hurt pretty bad. Medications can help with this pain, but are or should be a temporary solution, the goal should be eventual termination of meds at some point to save our livers and other organs.

Recovery time also needs to be considered. Younger patients get off easier in this regard, elder patients heal slower and take longer. Full recovery in patients above age 40 takes a full year. Fusion takes a full year. Its takes this long for the bone to heal, and sometimes this doesn’t happen and our rods can break. If they do, we need another surgery.....Walking is pretty much the standard therapy, speeding up the healing process doesn’t happen by walking that much more, you don’t heal in a week because you walk 10 miles on the 7th day. You wont make it, and it can cause more damage. It’s a slow steady process, with just a little more effort each day.

Understanding and having the will and drive for success is needed....having a positive attitude is a must, and after commitment, never second guess or look back and think, “I shouldn’t have done it”. Once its done, its done, an irreversible process......All we can do is do the best we can with what we have and focus on the prize, which is eventual recovery, in time, no matter what it takes.

Spyros, you have questions.....go ahead and ask them and we will answer.

Ed

[jrnyc]

Spyros, i think it would be good to get all the info you can
from your surgeon...it is important to know exactly where the
fusion will be...where it will start and end...
best to know ahead of time to be able to be as prepared as possible,
and have a better idea of what to expect...
just a suggestion...

jess

[Spyros]

Well, my decision was already taken from the time that i book an appointment with my surgeon (3 months ago). When i heard that chiropractors might be a solution, I started looking some things about them.. but i didnt find good results.

I know my body and the situation i am right now and the surgery is the only solution.

Aaa, i forgot to mention that I went to a chiropractor here where i live, though not a top chiropractor but he is good.. And after he saw me and watched my x-rays, he told me that: "None chiropractor can do anything about your case, cause you have torsion on your spinal and its like mechanical (if i remember right) scoliosis. If you had just the S type on your spinal it the chiropractor could correct you. So the surgery is the only solution."

Ed & Jess, I understand the suggestion that i must to know where the fusion will exactly be. But now its difficult to know.. Cause i live 450 km away from my surgeon and its difficult to examine me again or watch my x-rays. What i can do about that? Phone him and tell him what? "Hey, i m Spyros who ...... "
I will probably learn about my fusion on my pre-op date. Or, do you have any other suggestion?

I have some questions about the whole thing, but i ll need to think about them and write all my questions together.

[jrnyc]

i am not questioning your decision...
just suggesting the more you learn ahead of time,
the better prepared you can be for what you will need help
with after surgery...
i am sure your surgeon must have a receptionist and nurses...
that is how things work here in surgeons' offices here in the States...
perhaps you could get some questions answered that way...
by e mailing those people...
and i am sure the surgeon expects you to have questions...
all patients do with such a big surgery...

i know you have given this a lot of thought and are
proceeding after much consideration and advice from
the right doctors and professionals...
just try to find out as much as you can so you will know what
to plan for and expect.

wishing you the best...
jess