Changes in scoliosis treatment due to Scoliscore

[flerc]

Claims are not facts.

I accept facts based on evidence.

I withhold acceptance of claims until they pony up the evidence.

Notice there is no need for faith at any point in this process.

Spinecor can say anything they want but until they produce evidence it is all just word salad.

But Spinecor is the invention of surgeons. You should to think the same you said when you talked about Weiss, that is, they are obliged to be honest, because they took an oath.
Of course is not the reason because I think that Spinecor is great invention. That kind of conclusions are an act of faith for me and I have never talked about faith. I think my conclusions are the outcome of logic process talking into account much concepts related with Problem Solving, facts, assumptions, evidence, odd, risk, science and even common sense (why not?). If you think I did not showed that, as I said you before, copy what I said and say me why.

In fact I have talked what I think about that kind of arguments of some professional more honest than others.. and in the case of Weiss.. if he really think that Schroth may not avoid a surgery, not seems to be too much honest what he is doing..
But anyway as I said before in this thread, people detracting non surgical methods and saying that only what surgeon does is what is useful, are who must to show the EVIDENCE that them never worked and there is no enough evidence to think that an incomparable better method may be reached.
Specially in your case, if you only believe in EVIDENCE, you must to show that EVIDENCE.

[skevimc]

I am not sure if the SEAS people have any relevant training or not.

Yes, the SEAS researchers are MD's and PhD's. I would also assume they have some type of physiotherapists working with them as well. Stephano Negrini is one of the main guys (an MD or PhD). He's big on evidence based conservative management of AIS.

[Pooka1]

Yes, the SEAS researchers are MD's and PhD's. I would also assume they have some type of physiotherapists working with them as well. Stephano Negrini is one of the main guys (an MD or PhD). He's big on evidence based conservative management of AIS.

Okay thanks for that.

SEAS then definitely comes out of the lay column for scientific approach.

[flerc]

Yes, the SEAS researchers are MD's and PhD's. I would also assume they have some type of physiotherapists working with them as well. Stephano Negrini is one of the main guys (an MD or PhD). He's big on evidence based conservative management of AIS.

A multidisciplinary Proyect! That is what we need but with much disciplines involved and all the resources that may be needed. We should try to do it possible!

[mariaf]

But Spinecor is the invention of surgeons.

I just wanted to point out that while the Spinecor brace may be the invention of one surgeon (Dr. Rivard), along with his colleague (Dr. Colliard), the vast majority of orthopedic surgeons do not prescribe it. In fact, it is largely prescribed and fitted by chiropractors.

More importantly, as Sharon pointed out, until the inventors of the Spinecor brace produce evidence of its effectiveness, the rest is all word salad (love that phrase, by the way).

[flerc]

I just wanted to point out that while the Spinecor brace may be the invention of one surgeon (Dr. Rivard), along with his colleague (Dr. Colliard), the vast majority of orthopedic surgeons do not prescribe it. In fact, it is largely prescribed and fitted by chiropractors.

As I said before, the reason because surgeons not recommend the Spinecor is the same reason because they not recommend any other alternative method.. even it seems that in a short time the only one solution they’ll recommend will be FUSION! .. or may be other kind of surgery in little kids. Why they do that, was also largely discussed before.

More importantly, as Sharon pointed out, until the inventors of the Spinecor brace produce evidence of its effectiveness, the rest is all word salad (love that phrase, by the way).

Now I ask to you a link to the EVIDENCE that Spinecor never worked. Otherwise is only a salad word (nice phrase).

[Pooka1]

Now I ask to you a link to the EVIDENCE that Spinecor never worked. Otherwise is only a salad word (nice phrase).

Every paper NOT written by the inventors. For example the Wong paper. That plus the personal experience of the surgeons is why they largely don't use it. Yet they use other braces. Chiros don't understand the literature apparently so they continue to make money from it.

If Spinecor worked then every surgeon would be using it and there wouldn't be any fusion of kids. But we don't see that.

[flerc]

Every paper NOT written by the inventors. For example the Wong paper. That plus the personal experience of the surgeons is why they largely don't use it. Yet they use other braces. Chiros don't understand the literature apparently so they continue to make money from it.

That kind of claims are an EVIDENCE for you that Spinecor never worked?

If Spinecor worked then every surgeon would be using it and there wouldn't be any fusion of kids. But we don't see that.

As I said many times before, I don't believe that some current method may work in all cases. In fact I think that only a solution combining in a rational way the principles behind some methods may work, if not in all cases, at least in a high percentaje of cases, something that surely is not happening today and should be attempted.
Anyway, the same claim may be used for all non surgical methods. Again the same kind of reasonings. Surgeons are the only one honest, clever and wise, so if they not use non surgical methods is because not works. We are again repeating what we have said before.

[mariaf]

Now I ask to you a link to the EVIDENCE that Spinecor never worked.

So you are suggesting that something works if there is no evidence that it doesn't?

As we know, that is not how the world of science operates - one has to prove that something DOES work - that is where the burden of proof lies. Anecdotal accounts and hearsay are not evidence.

[mariaf]

As I said before, the reason because surgeons not recommend the Spinecor is the same reason because they not recommend any other alternative method..

Surgeons do recommend alternatives to fusion, including various other types of braces such as TLSO, Providence, etc. The surgeons I have spoken to said they do not recommend Spinecor because they have seen no evidence of its effectiveness.

Even more troubling are cases (and I have heard of many, from both doctors and parents) where a curve that could PERHAPS have been controlled by other methods (another brace, VBS, etc.) was treated with Spinecor, usually prescribed by a chiro (during which time very often only in-brace x-rays were taken) - and by the time an out-of-brace x-ray was finally taken, or the child was finally brought to a pediatric orthopedic surgeon (the only type of doctor IMHO that should be treating scoliosis), the curve was so large that fusion was the only option left on the table.

[flerc]

So you are suggesting that something works if there is no evidence that it doesn't?

As we know, that is not how the world of science operates - one has to prove that something DOES work - that is where the burden of proof lies. Anecdotal accounts and hearsay are not evidence.

No, of course I’m not saying that. Proffessionals using some non surgical methods showed important improvements. It has nothing to do with anecdotal accounts or hearsay.

[Pooka1]

Proffessionals using some non surgical methods showed important improvements. It has nothing to do with anecdotal accounts or hearsay.

Are they permanent improvements? You can improve a curve over 10* by just standing differently.

Has a single person avoided surgery over an entire lifetime due to a conservative or alternative treatment?

These are the relevant questions. Vague comments like "improve" or "work" are not helpful unless you specify exactly what you are talking about. Most if not all people are looking for something that helps them avoid surgery that is needed for pain, progression or both. But that is NOT what is being addressed when some folks talk about a treatment "working." For some, "working" means making them money and not helping the patient.

[mariaf]

These are the relevant questions. Vague comments like "improve" or "work" are not helpful unless you specify exactly what you are talking about. Most if not all people are looking for something that helps them avoid surgery that is needed for pain, progression or both. But that is NOT what is being addressed when some folks talk about a treatment "working." For some, "working" means making them money and not helping the patient.

Great point. And it is important to remember that when someone questions the use of an alternative treatment method whose effectiveness has not been proven, it is not because we want to see everyone have surgery - it is because we don't want to see a patient or parent, often desparate to help themselves/their child, believe what those touting these methods are saying, without proof, and pay money for something that doesn't work.

And, unfortunately, there are always people out there just looking to make a buck.

[aterry]

"And, unfortunately, there are always people out there just looking to make a buck. "

Which is pretty much what I'd say about the surgeons.

[Pooka1]

"And, unfortunately, there are always people out there just looking to make a buck. "

Which is pretty much what I'd say about the surgeons.

That is an ad hom fueled by bitterness over the fact that no conservative treatment can match surgery for stopping progression and reducing curves.

Surgeons are the only game in town, like it or not. They are the good guys.