Questions fo rour Clear Chiro, Smith

[leahdragonfly]

Poor little Smith, how terrible that she felt pressured and had to run away. But remember, she came onto this forum posing as an innocent parent wanting to know about her daughter's posture. It's insulting to those of us parents who actually have children suffering from scoliosis.

If the Clear people want to be taken seriously, they would get farther by being up front and saying Hi I'm here to tell you why Clear is so great, instead of trolling around undercover. That's what some of us are unhappy about with Ms Smith.

[Pooka1]

The posture question was beyond the pale given Clear is all posture all the time.

And then her admission that her own daughter would not wear the head weights made the entire episode worse for Clear. It was an anti-advertisement for Clear essentially.

So it provided balance at least. It canceled (and then some) her earlier stealth advertisement for Clear.

[mariaf]

Poor little Smith, how terrible that she felt pressured and had to run away. But remember, she came onto this forum posing as an innocent parent wanting to know about her daughter's posture. It's insulting to those of us parents who actually have children suffering from scoliosis.

If the Clear people want to be taken seriously, they would get farther by being up front and saying Hi I'm here to tell you why Clear is so great, instead of trolling around undercover. That's what some of us are unhappy about with Ms Smith.

I nominate this for Post of the Month, Gayle.

Smith lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned by not revealing who she was. The medical PROFESSIONALS that I deal with would never dream of doing that.

And did Dr. D really say that Smith has no time to be part of this online discussion because she is a working mother?? Gee, I am a working mom (as I know that you are) and yet I find time to do all sorts of things. I guess we are just special :-)

[Pooka1]

I nominate this for Post of the Month, Gayle.

I'll second the nomination. Also look at how much time Dovorany put into answering these questions. I think he is trying to be credible whereas Smith was not.

And did Dr. D really say that Smith has no time to be part of this online discussion because she is a working mother?? Gee, I am a working mom (as I know that you are) and yet I find time to do all sorts of things. I guess we are just special :-)

Yes. The problem that explodes that explanation is that she was posting on another forum and I bet will contuniue to do so. And who knows how many other fora she is posting on either as herself or masquerading as a lay parent.

So it is clear that she has the time but not the spine to answer the questions here.

[mariaf]

Well said, Sharon.

Like I said, Smith has ZERO credibility as far as I'm concerned.

[dovoranydoc]

Poor little Smith, how terrible that she felt pressured and had to run away. But remember, she came onto this forum posing as an innocent parent wanting to know about her daughter's posture. It's insulting to those of us parents who actually have children suffering from scoliosis.

If the Clear people want to be taken seriously, they would get farther by being up front and saying Hi I'm here to tell you why Clear is so great, instead of trolling around undercover. That's what some of us are unhappy about with Ms Smith.

This is the kind of disrespectful behavior that makes this forum an impossible place to have a conversation

medical professional (surgeons) are not posting because they are not being judged, they are not doing something new in a system that has been the same for 100's of years. I understand how important it is to the public to challenge something new, a different paradigm, to ask for research and proof.

But to openly and publically slander a professionals name is unacceptable.

If you want me to continue to openly communicate to you regarding our program than I would expect some restraint and maybe not type everything that pops in your head based on personal feelings

in regards to CLEAR people being taken seriously well...

We don't need your forum to endorse us for credibilty. I think my experience so far has been pretty telling on where CLEAR will be going in the future. having personally met with Dr Ken Ward and Dr Ogilvie(past president of the SRS and well respected othopedic surgeon) out in Salt Lake state that our program is the most innovative rehabilitation program he has come across and would recommend it over bracing and before surgery, Having my close colleague Dr Stitzel lecture at Shriners Hospital in PA to Dr Randal Betz and his staff and be asked back a second time, jointly working on early stage patients with Dr Betz, myself and Dr Stitzel being invited to teach in London at the Chiropractic College, having orthopedic surgeons referring me scoliosis patients that would have otherwise gone to bracing etc etc etc

What you think you know about our program you don't. Most of the things that are said are said to create fear and create a sense of confusion for those seeking alternative methodology. By constantly stating that you know what we are and being misinformed only discredits you not us.

We are not hiding anything, we are still figuring things out, but we are going to be part of the future of scoliosis care that I am certain. Where exactly we fit in I am unsure because we are still collecting data and doing case studies and treating patients.

The advent of genetic testing only helps in our research process. if in fact scoliscore accuracy is proven long term, it will allow a more accurate picture of progression rates and treatment effect on different types and classes of scoliosis patients.

I think it is important to understand that the amount of variables in any given study are going to make it difficult, a very arduous process considering our program does rely very heavily on compliance over a long period of time.

So if we could discontinue the slanderous personal remarks that would help move this forward.

kind regards,
Dr Dovorany

But the preliminary data is very promising.

[mariaf]

This is the kind of disrespectful behavior that makes this forum an impossible place to have a conversation.

WRONG.

It is disrespectful, not to mention an insult to our collective intelligence, when someone comes here hiding their true identity.

It is worse when unsuspecting, desparate parents hand over thousands of dollars - and their kids are exposed to excessive amounts of radiation exposure - all as part of a method of 'treatment' that is unproven and that is not taken seriously by any of the top, most well-respected pediatric orthopedic/spinal experts in the country.

So I'm sorry if this place isn't warm and fuzzy enough for you and Smith - but now you know that there are several of us who will not stand idly by while someone tries to hide their true identity.

You and/or Smith are welcome to post elsewhere if the scrutiny is too much for you here.

[leahdragonfly]

[QUOTE=dovoranydoc;113541]This is the kind of disrespectful behavior that makes this forum an impossible place to have a conversation.

But to openly and publically slander a professionals name is unacceptable.

If you want me to continue to openly communicate to you regarding our program than I would expect some restraint and maybe not type everything that pops in your head based on personal feelings.<snip>

Dovorny,

1. My disrespect for Ms Smith comes from her dishonest portrayal of HERSELF. She chose how to introduce herself here, and she did it in an entirely dishonest way. If she wants respect she must act in an honest and respectful way. She has no one to blame but herself.

2. I never said anything to slander Ms Smith, and made no comment at all directed toward you. Your earlier posts seems like you are trying to be honest and open. That is all we are asking for here. Smith would have been fine if she had tried your approach.

3. I hate to tell you, but on support forums, people are all entitled to their own feelings and opinions. You are just choosing to be mad because your associate Smith made HERSELF look foolish. Period. If she feels slandered she should look to her own actions.

[tonibunny]

To be fair, what Gayle said wasn't at all slandorous or disrespectful, it was true. Ms Smith did turn up here and asked about her own daughter's postural problems as though she was just a regular parent rather than a chiropractor. It appeared very disingenuous and if any behaviour was disrespectful here, this was! She would probably have been much better received if she had been honest from the start.

Clear has a poor track record because some of your chiropractors seem keen on spreading inaccurate, outdated information about surgery rather than concentrating on showing how your particular flavour of chiropractic can help us. It would be good to see you leave surgery to the surgeons who are qualified in such matters, and instead show us just why Clear is so good. Hopefully you have started to make changes with regard to this, Mr D! There are plenty of people willing to give you a chance if you're honest.

[dovoranydoc]

It is worse when unsuspecting, desparate parents hand over thousands of dollars - and their kids are exposed to excessive amounts of radiation exposure - all as part of a method of 'treatment' that is unproven and that is not taken seriously by any of the top, most well-respected pediatric orthopedic/spinal experts in the country.

.

Interesting post coming from someone who has had VBS done at the same hospital in PA and most likely the same orthopedic surgeon whom I mentioned we have been meeting with.

I agree, it would be terrible if unsuspecting desparate parents spent thousands of dollars and their child were exposed to excessive radiation to perform a treatment option that was ineffective, are we talking about spinal bracing? because CLEAR performed in my office certainly does not expose kids to excessive radiation and in most cases is very effective and parents and children are very pleased. In addition to insurance covering a significant portion of their care.

It would also be be terrible if some child and family missed an opportunity to reduce and stabilize their scoliosis without surgery based on false and misleading information.

[dovoranydoc]

Clear has a poor track record because some of your chiropractors seem keen on spreading inaccurate, outdated information about surgery rather than concentrating on showing how your particular flavour of chiropractic can help us. It would be good to see you leave surgery to the surgeons who are qualified in such matters, and instead show us just why Clear is so good. Hopefully you have started to make changes with regard to this, Mr D! There are plenty of people willing to give you a chance if you're honest.

I agree with this statement 100% and have been trying to move away from surgery bashing. I don't think CLEAR can move forward by trying to criticize other treatment methods but rather by proving how our method can play a role within the scoliosis treatment arena. I must say I am very discouraged with bracing results and will most likely continue to encourage parents to move away from bracing it has had enough time treating kids to give us a very good measure of its performance where as CLEAR is just too new to get a substantial enough database together currently to measure long term outcomes which as we all know are where the true test of legitimacy lies with scoliosis care.

[dovoranydoc]

I appreciate the engagement from the CLEAR folk. If there's something in their treatment that helps reduce curves, it would benefit many of us to understand it.

I'd like to ask a treatment-based question.

What's the proposed mechanism linking head position and scoliosis? I ask because my son did some massage/stretch/exercises which brought his head back into better alignment, and noticed that it affected his kyphotic appearance. But we didn't notice a change in his scoliosis.

Also, is there a reason to use weights/etc instead of massage and stretching? Have you looked at both methods?

Thanks!

forward head posture and loss of cervical lordosis do not cause or cure scoliosis.
forward head posture and decreased cervical lordosis have been linked to increases in cord tension. If the neuroscience is accurate in regards to this being fact, then by decreasing forward head posture and loss of cervical lordosis should in fact demonstrate frontal plane changes (reduced Cobb), which clincally I have only seen in postural scoliosis, not AIS.

In AIS cases reducing forward head posture does seem to correlate to less progressive behavior and the ability to hold correction better. this is another instance where more data is needed. FHP also seems to be biomechanically linked to hypokyphosis in the thoracic spine as demonstrated by several bracing and surgical studies where further flattening the thoracic spine resulted in increased FHP, some of the newer surgical and bracing techniques have taken this into consideration.

[livingtwisted]

Thank you, Dr. Dovorany, for bearing with everyone on this forum. You are one of the brave few willing to put up with all the nonsense. Some of us are here to learn as much as we can so I appreciate the time you've put into it and everyone on here asking the hard questions that I might not think of. Unfortunately until the personal attacks stop our access to professionals through this site will be limited.

[Pooka1]

forward head posture and loss of cervical lordosis do not cause or cure scoliosis.

That certainly seems to be the case.

Correct me if I'm wrong but two of your CLEAR colleagues are on record as disagreeing with this statement.

Do you think there is a problem within CLEAR with various people making counterfactual statements at times?

[Pooka1]

Thank you, Dr. Dovorany, for bearing with everyone on this forum. You are one of the brave few willing to put up with all the nonsense. Some of us are here to learn as much as we can so I appreciate the time you've put into it and everyone on here asking the hard questions that I might not think of. Unfortunately until the personal attacks stop our access to professionals through this site will be limited.

If you were the blind leading the blind leading the naked, how would you ever figure it out? For example, your comment on BigBlueFrog's thread has an obvious logical problem. Do you know what it is?

Not talking about Dovorany's comments here but in general, is there any correct way in your mind to criticize counterfactual claims? I am beginning to wonder. I have encountered that before in terms of there is no way to correctly criticize certain beliefs. That can't stand if there is ever to be progress.