So glad I found you guys!

[Elisa]

Hello all. I just found this forum a few days ago and have been reading a lot of the posts and finding them so informative and have so many questions that I don't even know where to begin.

I live on Vancouver Island off the coast of British Columbia and I have a fourteen-year-old son who has been diagnosed with scoliosis. About a year ago, my husband noticed a strange bump on the right side of his back and we were sure it was from his poor posture while at his computer and we didn't look into it for several months after that until his bump became more noticeable.

Took him for a doc appointment, got x-rays done and it was confirmed he definitely has scoliosis. There are no pediatric orthopedic surgeons on Vancouver Island so he is waiting to see Dr. Riley over on the mainland at BC's Children's Hospital. The wait is LONG and my husband calls often and talks to the secretary there and the other day she told my husband that they are going to fit him in between patients otherwise he won't get in until 2012!

I don't know what degree his curve(s) are but I am going to find out asap from the doc here. I know he told me what they were but honestly it didn't mean much to me at the time but I do remember the doc saying that it was not mild, more moderate.

Now that I've looked at other pics of people on the Net, I feel as though my son's scoliosis is bordering on severe b/c his spine not only looks crooked but looks like it's twisting and making the whole right side stick out and his left side looks caved in. I also noticed the other day that he has stretch marks over his lower ribs on the right side, like the skin is way too tight there.

He does have some back discomfort and is constantly applying a muscle rub. We have just recently bought him a much better bed as well as a better more supportive computer chair as he is not an athletic kid at all and is more a computer nerd type.

I'm taking him to a chiropractor on Monday who also has scoliosis so hopefully he'll be able to give me more info as well as some exercises etc. that my son can do at home while he waits to see Dr. Riley in Vancouver.

Questions:

Anyone familiar with BC Children's Hospital and Dr. Riley?

Do you think he's too old for a brace? Since he's a boy, he's got a lot more growing years ahead.

What can I do to help my son in the meantime while we're waiting for him to be seen?

Thanks so much for reading and thanks in advance for any responses.

[Elisa]

This really freaked me out when I first read it and I sent the link to my husband who promptly freaked out soon thereafter. Now after spending a few days reading posts here and elsewhere, I'm beginning to think this site is very one sided and perhaps is designed to scare people away from surgery and direct them to chiropractors instead??

http://www.scoliosiscorrectioncenter...toldtruth.html

[Pooka1]

Wow that site is a masterpiece of self loathing... I scanned several pages and couldn't find a single place where Hersh admits he is only a chiro. This is an area where places like the UK (and Canada?) are way ahead of the US... chiros are not allowed to use the "Dr." title.

Chiros are not trained to treat scoliosis FULL STOP.

Chiros shouldn't be treating kids AT ALL FULL STOP.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11146

Elisa, welcome. I am sorry to hear about your son's diagnosis.

Time is a double-edged sword in the case of a 14 y.o. boy. The curve might be progressing but the child is growing.

I suggest you immediately apply to a Shriners hospital in the US near you. As I understand it, they take foreign patients. If you are accepted, you will likely be seen much earlier.

As for your questions...

Anyone familiar with BC Children's Hospital and Dr. Riley?

Not me.

Do you think he's too old for a brace? Since he's a boy, he's got a lot more growing years ahead.

That's for an experienced board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeon to answer.

What can I do to help my son in the meantime while we're waiting for him to be seen?

I'd apply to Shriner's ASAP if I were you.

Good luck.

[Pooka1]

By the way, it should go without saying that people like chiros who don't have a lick of training in surgery should not be commenting on surgery.

[Elisa]

Thanks for your reply Pooka. Now that you mention it, there is no "Dr." title in front of chiropractors' names up here. I'll read that link you posted.

I am going to look into the Shriners for sure. Thing is, when my husband talked to Dr. Riley's secretary a while back and mentioned the Shriners she was very quick to tell him that IF we went the Shriners' route they (BC Childrens) would have nothing to do with his followup. What do you guys think about that? I think the closest Shriners' hospital to us is in Oregon which of course is two states below us and out of Country. So confusing and so many decisions to make.

[LindaRacine]

This is another example of taking all the small, negative outcome studies, and ignoring all of the big, positive outcome studies. This is intentional deception. How do these people live with themselves?

[majo]

Dear Elisa, I have read your post. I am 36 now, and diagnosed at 14, like your son. I wasted my time in chiros, until the scoliosis was very advanced.
So I suggest contact an specialist asap. In the mean time I strong suggest practising sports specially swimming.
The most important thing that I have learnt is to do sports, in order to put my body stronger than it was.
I had surgery at 27, and from it I have been practising swimming and pilates. I really think that the most important thing is to conect with the own body, doing yoga, pilates, and others.
Please be free to ask anything.

[jennilynn]

I would love to find out what degree he's at. My daughter is at 66, has a lumpy spot where her curve is and her right shoulder sits much higher than the left...

We did a brace, it didnt' help at all. Even though she's only 12, her ortho said surgery MUST HAPPEN fast, because in 3 months she progressed 10 degrees on her curve.. she will have some growth in her lower back, legs, etc. but the section he fuses of course will not grow. We're good with that and so is she...

Definately, find a second opinion!! Be wary of Chiro's. Our chiro's in our area won't touch a scoliosis patient (one will I think, but the one I see for my back adjustments, said that with progressed curves, that adjustments and such are not helpful and can possibly harm a child). Therapy may help any pain, but it wont' change the curve(s) according to our ortho surgeon.

Explore your options and definately advocate for your child... only YOU are going to do that the best! Keep at it!

good luck!!

Jen

[Angele1]

With all due respect to those and their opinions of chiropractors and I mean this sincerely, so please don't attack me . I have noticed quite a bit of chiropractic bashing on this forum. Now, I do agree that there are many chiropractors out there that have given the profession a bad name. More than I care to admit but just like in all professions there are good apples and bad apples.

Chiropractors are not trained in surgery, just like surgeons aren't trained in chiropractic. And in all fairness to the opinions on this forum, I do agree that the general chiropractor without any further training in scoliosis treatment shouldn't be treating scoliosis patients. But beyond the basic education, there are a multitude of continuing education classes, seminars and certifications that these doctors, yes, they are doctors, can obtain after their chiropractic education is done.

I saw the post about comparison about medical education and chiropractic and I don't think it is a fair comparison in that both fields are completely different so how can you compare?

Did you know that there are 5 National Boards that these docs have to get through and in some instances state board exams they have to take? They are regulated by the states Medical Quality Assurance department and are accepted on most health insurance plans. If they were such "quacks" why would licensure even be allowed?

I do believe that alot of animosity towards the profession is a fear of the unknown and/or understanding the profession.

I have seen references to "subluxations" and curing the world...blah blah blah..but have any of you spoke with a chiropractor that is biomechanically based with backgrounds in physics, human kinetics and neuromuscular reeducation?

The CLEAR Institute, I have noticed, is really trying to make a difference within the scoliosis community. And even though you may see websites that steer you away from surgery, I am sure you will see surgical sites that promote it. A surgeon is going to want to do surgery. A chiropractor is going to want to utilize non-invasive means to achieve an outcome. Why are some on this group so steadfast against a group that is only trying to find a better way to deal with scoliosis and to truly understand the nature of the condition? A group that is trying to control the curve in its early stages so that it won't progress to surgical status...is that so wrong? Isn't that what we all want? Do we really want our kids going through surgery if we don't have to? What have your experiences been to warrant such an attack so quickly?

I think before posting opinions on this site that are so blatantly harsh you need to let these people come to their own conclusions.

I do not think it is fair to state that all chiropractors are crooks, deceitful, and quacks. There are many that are scientifically based, who utilize physics, biomechanics and neuromuscualr reeducation.

Just my point of view. I am sure someone will have somethng to say about it. Please be kind as I just joined this site and would really like to stay!
All in the spirit of fairness....

[leahdragonfly]

Hi Angele,

with all due respect, this type of post is NOT what Elisa needs right now with her son's new diagnosis. This type of post is very inflammatory and will ignite a huge flame war, and Elisa will probably want to run away screaming from the forum.

May I suggest that if you wish to share your point of view about chiropractic, you start a new thread so that Elisa's thread does not get hijacked and ruined.

Since you are also new to the forum, it would be very educational for you to read back into the archives to understand the history of the discussions here about chiropractic and Clear. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but those of us who are here for support and to support others absolutely hate seeing these flame wars about these two controversial subjects reignited.

Now, back to Elisa.

Best regards,

Gayle

[Angele1]

Absolutely not intended to start a flame war! There were comments here with regards to chiropractic so I chimed in. I am sensitive to these issues and am a mother of three. I know what it is like to get a diagnosis for one of your children and to tear yourself apart over the choices.

My sincerest apologies...wasn't trying to start anything.
Perhaps if time warrants I will go back and start a new thread.

Please believe that my intentions were pure and not set out to upset anyone.

I will go back and check out the multitude of archives...

[Pooka1]

If they were such "quacks" why would licensure even be allowed?

I don't know but my guess is to generate a list so that the BBB can set up their files ahead of time so as to be ready for any complaints.

[Elisa]

I was asking on the forum about CLEAR and how much it cost but I don't think I got any responses on that one. I had read somewhere that it was quite costly and honestly right now our finances are not the best. We are in a recession here as well as with the winter coming on, both my husband and I are not working all that much b/c he is in the construction industry and I work at a hotel and both really slow down this time of year. I'd still be interested in knowing how much this CLEAR program costs b/c I doubt very much it would be covered in our regular medical insurance.

[Pooka1]

With all due respect to those and their opinions of chiropractors and I mean this sincerely, so please don't attack me . I have noticed quite a bit of chiropractic bashing on this forum. Now, I do agree that there are many chiropractors out there that have given the profession a bad name. More than I care to admit but just like in all professions there are good apples and bad apples.

No actually it's not like other professions because the basis of chiro (subluxations) has been shown to be nonsense. Unless the evidence-based chiros come up with something, it is not obvious that there is a "there" there with chiro. So far it is as imaginary as homeopathy to the extent the claim is it is any different from PT.

Now Clear has broken considerably away from its chiro base in my opinion (for example I have never heard one of those guys mention "subluxation" to their credit) but they have to start ponying up some evidence soon. It's an uphill battle though give the piss-poor training at chiro schools (see other thread) but it can be done... people Like Morningstar can think and write clearly and J. Woggon can write clearly but tends to include demonstrably counterfactual material in his writings. To his credit he admits some of this but he needs to check his facts far more carefully going forward.

Chiropractors are not trained in surgery, just like surgeons aren't trained in chiropractic. And in all fairness to the opinions on this forum, I do agree that the general chiropractor without any further training in scoliosis treatment shouldn't be treating scoliosis patients. But beyond the basic education, there are a multitude of continuing education classes, seminars and certifications that these doctors, yes, they are doctors, can obtain after their chiropractic education is done.

But unless the continuing education is evidence-based it is nonsense. If it isn't you are going to end up with another subluxation situation on your hands and therefore another black eye on chiro.

I saw the post about comparison about medical education and chiropractic and I don't think it is a fair comparison in that both fields are completely different so how can you compare?

Well, aren't chiro schools constantly claiming they are comparable to med school? Don't they claim to have a huge overlap in classwork? I can send you a link showing this. I don't want to post it because it contains a lot of nonsense.

I do believe that alot of animosity towards the profession is a fear of the unknown and/or understanding the profession.

It's unknown because nobody has ever ponied up any evidence for it. And folks SHOULD be fearful of non-evidence-based modalities else they end up with chanting and voodoo and such.

I have seen references to "subluxations" and curing the world...blah blah blah..but have any of you spoke with a chiropractor that is biomechanically based with backgrounds in physics, human kinetics and neuromuscular reeducation?

If this is real training then do orthopedic surgeons also get this training or only chiros?

The CLEAR Institute, I have noticed, is really trying to make a difference within the scoliosis community. And even though you may see websites that steer you away from surgery, I am sure you will see surgical sites that promote it. A surgeon is going to want to do surgery. A chiropractor is going to want to utilize non-invasive means to achieve an outcome.

Ah but the reasons are different. If a surgeon suggest surgery it is because the EVIDENCE tells him that that is the best hope for the patient.

A chiro suggests a non-invasive approach DESPITE a LACK of evidence because they are not trained in the only modality that has evidence of efficacy - surgery.

Huge difference.

Everyone, not only Clear chiros, want an effective non-invasive approach. Do you have evidence Clear alters the natural history? If not, do you tell people you are experimenting on them and that there is no evidence yet?

Why are some on this group so steadfast against a group that is only trying to find a better way to deal with scoliosis and to truly understand the nature of the condition?

Because you are charging huge prices for an experimental modality that you don't know can change the natural history. It might but it hasn't been shown yet.

A group that is trying to control the curve in its early stages so that it won't progress to surgical status...is that so wrong? Isn't that what we all want? Do we really want our kids going through surgery if we don't have to? What have your experiences been to warrant such an attack so quickly?

Yes the key is "trying" to control the curve in the early stages. You don't know that now. Do you understand how incredibly hard it would be for anyone to SHOW that is the case? The background natural history on small curves is that most will not progress. Do you simply assume that if a curve doesn't progress or even resolves while being treated then it must have been the treatment worked? Is your success rate with small curves in fact identical to the natural history?

Just my point of view. I am sure someone will have something to say about it. Please be kind as I just joined this site and would really like to stay!
All in the spirit of fairness....

I hope you stay and answer the questions for the bunnies.

[titaniumed]

Elisa

He has a good one. It looks like a 80-90 thoracic curve. It will be interesting to see what they say on this. If I had to guess, I would say T2-L1.

BTW, I was a King 1 with twin 50s at age 16.

Ed