Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

[Bigbluefrog]

http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/s...on_spr2002.pdf

shows X-rays and documents...

[Bigbluefrog]

Martha published a book on scoliosis:
Scoliosis and the Human Spine
by Martha Hawes

[Pooka1]

I hope folks tried her methods and report back with their results.

[Bigbluefrog]

I am finding reports on improvements and very significant improvements

http://scoliosis3dc.com/scoliosis-ex...ce-her-curves/
If you google martha hawes and 3d schroth you find X-rays and documents of significant improvements.

unfortunately its not the typical studies, more of personal testimonies.

Encouraging, Martha is not a rare situation and more people are seeing results.

IT does say disclosure, the goal is to maintain, improvement is a plus and unfortunately no guarantees. It is dedication and hard work. LIke I said we did see improvements with her back but it was not more than 7 degrees and still falls in range of error of reading.

[Pooka1]

While Weiss was at the Schroth clinic, it is said he treated about 3,000 patients a year for at least 10 years. That is at least 30,000 patients.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is that there is still no convincing evidence Schroth is effective and I think Weiss would admit this given a recent article where he is acknowledging that the question of whether conservative treatment works is still open. After all these years and all those patients.

And Schroth is still a fringe treatment in its native Germany and surgery is still conducted as ever.

While we still can't say that Schroth has been disproven, we can feel confident in saying it missed a golden opportunity to do so. Or maybe it wasn't missed but just didn't pan out.

[Pooka1]

I am finding reports on improvements and very significant improvements

http://scoliosis3dc.com/scoliosis-ex...ce-her-curves/
If you google martha hawes and 3d schroth you find X-rays and documents of significant improvements.

unfortunately its not the typical studies, more of personal testimonies.

Encouraging, Martha is not a rare situation and more people are seeing results.

IT does say disclosure, the goal is to maintain, improvement is a plus and unfortunately no guarantees. It is dedication and hard work. LIke I said we did see improvements with her back but it was not more than 7 degrees and still falls in range of error of reading.

By the way, these reports are fine but you need to find the reports on people who did Schroth with curves >30* in T and double major curves before the growth spurt and they remained clearly sub-surgical after the growth spurt. That would turn heads in my opinion though there is still the open question of curves >30* reaching surgery territory within some years after the growth spurt.

[Bigbluefrog]

Because there have been these scattered data points of people's curves decreasing across a whole bunch of different exercise regimes (including a Schroth patient on this forum), I suspect the real issue is that the people who run these programs aren't working together to figure out the *exact* things that work. Instead, each program likely has a few things that really work and a whole bunch of things that don't make a bit of difference. That's really slowing down progress in this area.

Kudos to Kevin (and the torso rotation and side shifting studies in general) for being an exception to this rule.

It would be helpful to really narrow down what is working.

What specifically is the mechanism is working?

do you have links to side shifting? or torso rotation? We did not see improvement with torso rotation, and thought maybe we were using the machine incorrectly.

[Pooka1]

It would be helpful to really narrow down what is working.

What specifically is the mechanism is working?

It could just be the rare individual has some aspect that allows PT to work.

There are so few cases of PT unambiguously holding a curve and even fewer reducing a curve that it might be more reasonable to conclude that the bulk of folks can't be helped by PT for progression EXCEPT if you are one of the rare individuals who has some aspect of physiology that is amenable to PT then you can temporary halt/reduce a curve.

I am suggesting that it might be fundamentally wrong to assume from the literal handful of cases that there is any PT modality that can hold a curve in the majority of cases. It may not be a question of finding which one in the sea of modalities is the magic one; rather it may be which person in the sea of persons happens to have the physiology to benefit from PT. This explanation captures the evidence in hand as I know it though I would not say I am all that familiar with it.

The question of PT to hold a curve during the growth spurt appears slightly open though not gaping open.

[mamamax]

I can't find the side shift article with pictures, but here's the summary:

http://proceedings.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/c...-B/SUPP_I/22-d

I have the original author article in PDF format if anyone wants it - just send me a pm (too large to upload in forum).

[Bigbluefrog]

By the way, these reports are fine but you need to find the reports on people who did Schroth with curves >30* in T and double major curves before the growth spurt and they remained clearly sub-surgical after the growth spurt. That would turn heads in my opinion though there is still the open question of curves >30* reaching surgery territory within some years after the growth spurt.

No, my dd curves are less than 30.

And I believe Martha improvement shows a greater correction.

Curious. What is your experience with exercise ? PT? schroth?

SEAS?

If your giving me your opinion because of experience...I will give it more weight. Otherwise....it's just your opinion.....no concrete evidence...
documents, x-rays, studies.
Share your links to support your statements....thanks

Knowledge.....is good
Faith and hope is needed....a parent's love is unconditional

[Pooka1]

No, my dd curves are less than 30.

And I believe Martha improvement shows a greater correction.

I am simply saying that to UNAMBIGUOUSLY show that PT held or reduced a curve, you have to deal with relatively large curves. If you don't then the natural history favors non-progression and you can't say that the PT did a darn thing. That's my only point there.

In re the Hawes case, ask yourself why there aren't more cases like hers.

If your giving me your opinion because of experience...I will give it more weight. Otherwise....it's just your opinion.....no concrete evidence...
documents, x-rays, studies.

No you need to completely discount personal experience. The only hope is high quality research with evidence. If there was evidence PT worked then why hasn't anyone published it and why are you having trouble getting your insurance company for pay for Schroth when they would absolutely pay for fusion. The answer is E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E.

Knowledge.....is good
Faith and hope is needed....a parent's love is unconditional

Yes a parent's love is unconditional. I don't understand how that relates to the above.

[Bigbluefrog]

I have enough evidence....my dd x-rays, improved measurements, better posture, no pain, And those who are in schroth have shared only a positive experiences.
PLease...if you have tried actually tried schroth and had a bad experience please do post.

And yes, that is enough evidence for me....It is working for us and I am not
alone in this.
anyway, you can dismiss as much as you like, truth is it's working for us. and you can post and post but you can't provide the EVIDENCE....to disprove it.


knowledge....is good
Faith and Hope is needed.....A parent's Love is unconditional

[Bigbluefrog]

a friend of mine, starting going to a schroth center and her daughters lumbar curve has improved significantly. Although she may need a insert for one shoe....she does 1/2hour exercise every night. Similar to PT.

I read articles about side shift. can anyone explain or link the exercise?

[Pooka1]

So your discrediting it based on your personal beliefs.

This is very important...

I have no beliefs whatsoever.

I accept facts. I don't "believe" facts. Belief is completely unnecessary. You simply ACCEPT facts.

Similarly, I accept the fact that PT is an unproven treatment modality on the basis of a lack of evidence after decades and decades.

That doesn't mean I think PT has been disproven to halt curves in a growth spurt so as to avoid surgery for life (although Weiss's 30,000+ patients can be viewed as strong evidence Schroth at least is not effective at this).

I accept that PT is more effective than surgery for certain types of pain based on evidence.

These distinctions I am making are real differences. I am speaking scientifically to you. You have to listen scientifically. Science is the only game in town.

It is working for us [...]

I'm glad things are going in the right direction for your daughter. She deserves to catch a break.

[Bigbluefrog]

Scientific evidence is measured.

Lung capcity
Xrays
Photos
Documentation


50 referrals....all positive.

Personal experience....good.

knowledge ....is Good
faith and Hope
a Parent's Love is Unconditional