pictures of my back: Scoliosis, lordosis and kyphosis. Discussion

[jrnyc]

hi Christian
i dont know what your back is telling you..mine is saying..."help...i hurt...a lot..."
i used to exercise at the gym....just cardio and weights...nothing special for scoli...but had to give it up 2 years ago due to pain...i need the pain meds just to take the edge off!

i think an MRI shows a lot more than a regular Xray...it revealed how much worse my discs have gotten (the reason for the increase in my pain), and i think it showed more of the spinal stenosis and arthritis, too....

i hope you find the exercises that will help you...

jess

[Christian0710]

Thanks for doing that!

Yes I agree with you that you might have a thoracolumbar curve. But notice again that other than that long, apparently mild TL curve, the rest of your back appears completely normal. No rib hump, no kyphosis, nothing. And standing, your shoulders are even.

I think the suregons will have to rule out functional issues before they would ever consider operating. If you curve is mild they would not consider operating anyway.

I am really looking forward to your radiographs. When do you think you will get in to have those done?

Hey Pooka1.
Gosh, it's only 04:17am, here in Denmark, and just can't sleep any longer. I feel 100% awake and refreshed. Strange?? :P
I can't wait to have those x-rays taken, and unfortunately I still don't know the date, but it might be a month or something like that, unfortunately. I will definitely post them when they are ready.
You are right, it is kind of strange that I have no rib hump, but standing my doctor told me I have Hyper kyphosis. Maybe the pictures don't illustrate that very well, but the standing pose should show some level of kyphosis and I have a belief that the Kyphosis is the real culprit of my neck pain, but it's hard to tell.

[hdugger]

Yes, I see the kyphosis coming up under your shoulder blade. That's just how my son looks--bumpy on one side and not on the other--and he has even shoulders as well. That doesn't mean that you do have a structural curve. He has a clear hump when he bends forward, which I don't see in your pictures.

My son is not only not on the forum, he really does not want to think about the whole issue unless it starts either progressing or causing him pain. If he has to have surgery, he'll probably start posting here himself. Until then, it's just going to be me

[hdugger]

Hyperkyphosis means that your back isn't bowing out like it should. It is flat or sunken in near the top, the opposite of hunchback. Gosh I hate using that word!

I'm almost certain that's HYPOkyphosis (hypo=less than normal). HYPERkyphosis is where it bows too much (hyper=more than normal)

[rohrer01]

I'm almost certain that's HYPOkyphosis (hypo=less than normal). HYPERkyphosis is where it bows too much (hyper=more than normal)

You are right. I was thinking hypo... Sorry, my mind is apparently not working correctly tonight. Maybe I should refrain from posting.

I deleted the post so as not to confuse anyone.

[Christian0710]

I just went to the doctor's office today to get some help mapping out my overactive muscles in my body, so I can exercise more efficiently. What I and he realized, which I can also see on the pictures now, is that my shoulders are now straight (also what hdugger mentioned). About 3 weeks ago when I went to see the doctor there was approximately 1cm difference in height he had told me. The interesting thing is that I have been doing nothing but functional exercise the last 3 weeks, especially learning how to use the shoulders in a right manner.
He told me that my rights shoulder wings a bit, which will be my next mission to remedy

Now for everyone with scoliosis and/or back and neck pain there are 2 books I recommend more than any other at this point. It's: Health in your hands by Kevin Lau, and overcoming beck and neck pain by Lisa Morrone. The latter is not about scoliosis, but certainly shows you how to use your body correctly which might also have a positive effect on your scoliosis in the long run.

The sun is shining here in Denmark, and I will continue studying anatomy so i can further treat myself and one day treat others, and of course i can't forget to take a walk outside and get my vitamin D

[Pooka1]

Hey Christian 0710, I'm going to make a suggestion which comes from me, an untrained, lay person.

We were discussing a case of "hysterical" scoliosis a while back wherein the curve was not structural but was only functional. The girl was essentially talked out of it was in other cases of hysterical scoliosis.

I thought maybe you might have hysterical kyphosis and lordosis and possibly also that TL curve might only be functional also. Now I think hysterical scoliosis is fundamentally a neuro problem that is amenable to improvement with conscious thought and PT. With that I am NOT suggesting anything crazy. I am suggesting that you might actually try to get an appointment with a neurologist and ask about this. The guy would have to be VERY experienced in back issues I would say. Perhaps you could bring what little literature there is on this subject to the appointment.

Your bending photos would make me very wary of ever getting surgery for your condition as I think you "fail" that test for structural problems. There is at least one case of a patient who was put under anesthesia in preparation for spinal fusion of her curve but just putting her under relaxed her and the curve went away. They woke her up and her back was normal - no surgery necessary. Perhaps you might eventually be able to try this first if anyone suggests surgery to you.

Good luck.

[Davis]

Wow, wouldn't that be a dream come true, to go to sleep and then just wake up ok.

[Pooka1]

Wow, wouldn't that be a dream come true, to go to sleep and then just wake up ok.

Hysterical scoliosis is apparently exquisitely rare, a fact in keeping with the mindless cruelty of life and the abject pointlessness of the universe.

[Christian0710]

Hey Pooka1

You might be right about it being a neurological problem, because I do have a lot of other imbalances in my system e.g. pollen allergy, and my body immediately responds to bad nutrition, especially sugar, and most pills and general medication knocks me out as well . So far, I am doing so many different ergonomic exercises, and constantly adjusting my posture (especially my neck) and I really want to see what effect this can give my body. I still have days where neck and shoulder pain is bad, and it's often a day after I have been eating sugar and snacks, so I am going to try to totally cut it out of my diet, only eating organic meat and vegetables (going to the extreme!) to see what will happen
Today was good, I sat 4 hours at work without pain, and did squatting and different ergonomic exercises in my brakes.
I will keep what you mentioned in mind. I think trying a grand variety of different specialists is a good idea.

By the way, what does PT mean? I keep hearing that word, and always wonder what it is. It's probably obvious when first i hear it :P

[Pooka1]

By the way, what does PT mean? I keep hearing that word, and always wonder what it is. It's probably obvious when first i hear it :P

PT = Physical Therapy. Exercise.

[Emmie]

Hello Christian:

I just found these forums a few days ago, and my account has just been activated. So, this is my first post

I am very interested in what you have found regarding exercise and your curvature. I have also found that exercise helps a great deal; if nothing else, strengthening the proper muscles has helped prevent my curves from deteriorating if nothing else.

I have learned something from my chiropractor and the personal trainer I worked with at my gym for a while. For every muscle, there is an opposite one. As humans, we often feel an ache or tightness and assume that muscle or area must be what needs work. While it does, it is not the only area that needs work. Sometimes the ache you feel in your quadracep is due to the fact that your gluteus or hamstring muscles are weak and in trying to compensate the quad gets overstretched. If you only work on your quads, you will not solve the issue... in fact you may inadvertently make things worse.

I realized from this that sometimes my body needs to do the opposite of what seems to make sense to me! I have both a thoracic and lumbar curve in a backwards "S". I feel a lot of tightness in my left lumbar region and want to stretch it out. The truth is, I need to strengthen the muscles on the right of the curve as well... when I only stretch the left area, I wind up in more pain later on.

In the example you provided regarding abdominal muscles, it is known that exercising the core muscles of the abdomen can help flatten that area and pull it in... however, the muscles of the lumbar region must also be strengthened properly. That can be tricky for anyone to do without injury, but especially so when a curve is present.

If you have not already tried it, I highly recommend that you get a copy of "Yoga for Scoliosis" by Elise Browning Miller. It should be available on VHS and DVD format. It is a very thoughtful and clear guide on a yoga practice, with variations for each type of curvture and demonstrations. So, for example, there may be a note that people with no thoracic curve should keep their hands even during a particular pose. Those with a thoracic curve to the right should extend their left arm further during this pose; those with one to the left should extend their right arm.

I think wha you have found so far is wonderful, and I am glad for you! I look forward to hearing more about your progress. I am also going to look for the books you mentioned, I think they would be very helpful for me as well!

Take care,
Emmie

[Christian0710]

Hello Emmie,
Thank you for sharing your insightful information about exercising. It made me realize some things, and I have some questions for you:

I believe that the muscles that are tight need to be stretched because they are overcompensating for other weak muscles, so if my neck get's stiff when I am lifting objects, my upper trapezius is being used instead of my shoulder (and lower trapezius when the shoulder is in place) and bicep which gives me lots of neck pain. And this makes perfect sense with what you are saying, because in this case I need to strengthen my lower trapezius, and my bicep to be able to use the arm to lift effectively.

I am very interested in the "learning to strengthen the lumbar muscles in the back" Do you have any effective and safe exercises for strengthening the lower back? And do you find that the tightness is on the same side as the direction of the curve, or the opposite side of the curve? There are the back muscles called erector spinae, and I have not really put much thought into exercising them. I know that my ribcage is posteriorly tilted (rib cage sticks out under my chest, instead of sitting in a horizontal line with my abdominal wall, thus giving my kyphotic posture) And it makes sense: I rarely feel lower back pain, and that must be because my lower back muscles are so weak that my upper region is out of balance because my lower back muscles don't stabilize very well.

Sometimes I feel as if this subject is so complex, because there are so many muscles in imbalance at once, and it's difficult to understand what causes pain sometimes, but I believe trial and error with good theories and education will get us far.

The only thing i can do is to try. I tried strengthening my rhomboids to further adduct my shoulderblades, but that created so much stiffness in my upper thoracic area that i know it's not the right exercise for me. If we keep trying new exercises, we could probably quickly figure out what feels good and what leaves us with stiffness, don't you think?

I hope to hear from you soon
Best wishes,
Christian

[Back-out]

If we keep trying new exercises, we could probably quickly figure out what feels good and what leaves us with stiffness, don't you think?

Exactly why I know I need to see a physiatrist - and one with spinal expertise.

The floor exercises I've gone back to doing since last October, DO relieve my pain but also cause much more stiffness too. Both help and hurt are in the lumbar area where the worst curvature is and also the (relatively) new kyphosis.

Net, the change is positive (I couldn't manage the pain without the core strengthening). However, ideally I could do exercises that ONLY do good. I suspect some of the exercises are making things worse, but which? (The routine is a mixture of at least ten different ones.)

Christian, you are ASTONISHINGLY knowledgeable about anatomy! I noticed the same thing in "sacket" who is about your age. What mature young men! I really admire you both for taking such responsibility for your own health.

Can't help thinking you will both end up making some career contribution to do with scoliosis and turn your affliction into a blessing to others.

[Christian0710]

Dear Black-out
Thank you so much for the words of praise. It's very encouraging for me to hear that, and encourages me to work even harder.

This is what I believe: When we exercise it always feels good because of the endorphins released in the body (even if exercising improperly) it's the feeling we get about 15-30 minutes after exercising that we should pay attention to.

I guess my question to you would be, where do you feel stiffness after exercising? And have you tried to isolate your exercises? Maybe do one exercise, wait 30 minutes, do another exercise, or something like that. When i e.g. do shoulder adduction in the "prone cobra" my neck and thoracic region tightens up, so for now it's a "no-go" for me. exercise Our body will tell us everything we need to know, we just have to listen, and I find that to be the hardest exercise to do sometimes. Right now as I am writing I feel slight neck pain because my head is tilted downwards putting excessive pressure on my neck, and my arms are leaning forward typing on the keyboard pulling my shoulders in a slump and flexing my upper trapezius which in this case is the culprit of my neck pain pain. There we go (tucking in my chin and moving my keyboard close to my body and pulling down my shoulders) ... Now it feels much better :-)



Winged scapula
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ghtscapula.jpg

I just took a picture of my right winged scapula, and after doing some reading found out that I need to strengthen my lower trapezius and my serratus anterior. Here is the exercise I must begin doing in every single lifting movement I make throughout the day.

Exercise for winged scapula
http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Scap_Anchor.htm