Stalking the Wild Psoas

[mamamax]

Thanks for all that interesting research! Whee, another avenue to explore. On Liz's website she mentions Peter Levine's work on healing trauma -- interesting also. I have wondered at times if muscle tension may play a role... we should be paid for all this research, huh?

I've ordered Peter Levine's book Waking the Tiger and am anxious to study it. I've read that it has been long known that trauma/stress plays a big role in affecting muscles (especially regarding the spine) - but I seldom actually hear people discuss it. I have however, often experienced it :-) David Berceli's work is also fascinating. Liz Koch's The Psoas Book is also on the way - so I guess I'll be better educated on all this one day. Will it make a difference - we'll see. Martha Hawes worked on her psoas (using reflexology) and credits this with laying the foundation for improvements in her condition. So maybe there is something to this in certain cases. I however, seek a gentler approach ;-)

As for right now, I'm pretty tired and will get a massage or am considering chiropractic treatment/massage (cheaper with insurance co-pay) this weekend. Hard to find balance between exercise and rest sometimes... wear myself out, get sick, rest, repeat

Welcome to the fold

[asccbodypro]

I have had tones of trouble with this little muscle! It's better than it use to be post surgery but has just recently been kicking up. Due in part to taking care of a temper-mental two year old and just coming up on ine year post op. Can't wait for the fatigue and pain to disappear...if it ever does.

[whatishappening]

............................To go off on the theory that psoas muscle could contribute to causing scoliosis, I am inclined to think that's a small possibility. For me personally, my psoas major is bulkier on the concave side of my lumbar curve. So for me, this might not apply to everyone, it seems my muscles 'adapted' to my curving spine. I'm guessing the years of being overstretched bulked the muscles up while the years of being 'squished' caused muscle mass to decrease. The muscle group that has the most noticeable difference for me is sacrospinalis. The convex side compared the convex side is so bulky and beefy... that might be in my favor and could even be slowing down progression.

I'd imagine, if concave side was the beefy side, the curve could progress faster due to all the strong muscle work pulling on the curve. This theory makes sense in my head, but maybe only in my currently fuzzy head

this is my great fear. what do others think?
(also, how does this poster know it is larger- the psoas is hidden-? Like, I can't see mine anyway and I can't feel it either or am I missing something?)

I found this:
from http://www.somatics.de/Psoas&Adds.html

Iliopsoas in relation to scoliosis and pelvic torsion

There have been several speculations claiming that an unilateral short psoas might be a frequent cause–or at least contributing factor--for a scoliosis. In terms of side-bending one would then suspect the lumbar spine to sidebend towards the side of the shorter psoas. In terms of rotation one would suspect the psoas fibers attaching at the lateral sides of the vertebrae to rotate this side more anteriorly, which would result in a general rotation of those vertebrae away from the side of the short psoas. Yet according to the generally accepted ‘Freyette’s First Law’[3] the lumbar vertebrae tend to rotate as a group in the opposite direction, i.e. with their vertebral bodies towards the side of their convexity (in relation to the observer). This rotation is also how just about all scioliotic spines appear in x-rays.

IF a short iliopsoas would indeed function as a significant factor for the sidebending of a lumbar scoliosis, this should be testable in the following way: with the pelvis kept immobile a hip joint flexion on the side of the short psoas would result in immediate decrease of the scoliosis, whereas bringing the femur back to line would increase the scoliosis again. Definitely not what one often sees in scoliotic people!

Further proof against the ‘iliopsoas theory’ of scoliosis comes from the fact that several surgical attempts to improve a severe scolosis by cutting the ‘short’ psoas have been reported to have never yielded to success.[4]

I don't have "real" scoliosis- but definitely rotation and according to Freyette's Law where there is rotation there is lateral deflection.

Anyway, a chiropractor stretched my left psoas in April, (my spine rotates to the right and my pelvis is pulled to the left- which is chicken and egg I don't know ) It was the best stretch of my life. I kept asking him to stretch it more- he was stretching it in a way that I had never experienced. It felt so so good. But the next day I seemed much worse, my first thought was that the tight psoas had been holding things "back". And I never went back to him out of fear. But maybe it was just coincidence. I don't know.

I am seeing a new chiropractor for about 10 visits now. At first he kept attacking my right psoas and I felt nothing (why was he so much more interested in the right psoas???- he knows I am rotated to the right- so was he hoping it was pulling my spine to the right? if you look at diagrams it look like the psoas rotates the spine toward the illium to which it is attached-or maybe I should say the length of the psoas permits spinal rotation away from the illium to which it is attached?) At that time he felt sure that I did not have scoliosis. But then he gave up on my right psoas and said it is very weak and I now know that to be true (there is a test you can do- it is in the same link I posted). (ps-I have also learnt that the TfL muscle makes up for a weak psoas and for me that is true - on the right side my TFL is quite large. Also something is huge just above my left glute- but not the quadratus lomborum- I don't think because it isn't tight. If I now actually stand with my pelvis square I have a mound of muscle there I never saw before. Sorry I diverged but it is all connected.)


So in my mind (unqualified) I picture an elongated weak right psoas permitting each single vertebrea to which it attaches to be rotated to the LEFT of the spine centerline even though the spinal twist is to the right. See? Say for example my L4- it is facing a little counterclockwise- say 10 oclock. L3 then is facing 11oclock , say L2 is facing just left of 12oclock. The right illium is say at 3oclock. see images attached.(I don't know where I got the first one from and I don't know if what they are showing is accurate)


Starting 2 sessions ago the chiro has begun to attack my left psoas. He presses it with his fingers- it doesn't feel good (the other chiro just stretched it in a special way) but I can feel all sorts of stuff when he presses it, including lower back pain.

Anyway the day after my last session I was laying down and was just experimenting- internally and externally rotating my femurs- to compare TFL's, and I am sure this left psoas spasmed (shortened- or reshortened)(though I didn't feel anything) and then the piriformis spasmed- I know because I can feel it strangling the sciatic nerve which tingles. (the piriformis spasms when trying to prevent excessive internal rotation- which I think was caused by the psoas spasm). The result of this is my leg wants to be interally rotated, I have sciatica in my foot and peroneal again and I am pronated like anything to resist this horrible torsion. And really, I was just moving my femur in and out- nothing vigous or anything and I was laying down!


sorry for the long post. I go back to the chiro tomorrow and I really don't know what I should do- I am just so confused- should I let him stretch/fingure it????. also, I guess around the time he gave up on my right posas, he also has changed his tune from "derotating me" (which he seemed quite upbeat about) to now just balancing my weight and he is looking a bit depressed and hesitates and looks at the floor the last time I asked him. ike he has changed his tune on many things since he switched psoas muscles. Before he attacked the left psoas he keep saying I don't have scoliosis and now he is saying you need proper xrays to know.

I am sorry, I am just getting desperate. I just don't feel comfortable with Chiropractors expertise- they don't explains themselves, which I personally think is a very bad sign because when someone knows what they are doing they are very happy to explain themselves and I have yet to witness that from any of the para-professionals.

[Pooka1]

I just don't feel comfortable with Chiropractors expertise- they don't explains themselves, which I personally think is a very bad sign because when someone knows what they are doing they are very happy to explain themselves and I have yet to witness that from any of the para-professionals.

Chiro is not a science. They have no particular expertise. And it shows. It is founded on an imaginary concept, "chiropractic subluxations."

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-chiropractic/

Is chiropractic a science? No.
Is chiropractic based on neurology, anatomy and physiology? No.
Are chiropractors doctors of the nervous system? No.
Does chiropractic improve health and quality of life? No.

[gail govan]

That Psoas!

What do we know about the psoas muscle?

Maybe more importantly what do we know about it in relation to Scoliosis?

According to Liz Koch (a fellow scoliosis patient):

The Shortened Psoas

Because the psoas contracts and releases at each of its joint attachments it has the ability not only to stabilize but also to torque, rotate and twist the spinal vertebrae, pelvis and legs. A short psoas tips the pelvic bowl forwards. Minimizing the space between the crest of the pelvis and the leg compresses the hip socket, preventing the leg from moving separately from the trunk. Normal rotation, instead of occurring in the ball and socket of the hip joint, begins to manifest as twists in the knees and torques in the lumbar spine.

Chronic muscular tension, overdeveloped external muscles, and muscular substitutions can be linked to a tense or overworked psoas. Birth anomalies, falls, surgery, overexuberant stretching or weightlifting may create pelvic instability or affect the functioning of the psoas muscle. However, like the chicken and the egg koan, whichever comes first – a short psoas muscle or an unstable pelvis – the problems that arise are the same: limited pelvic volume, constricted organs, impinged nerves and impaired diaphragmatic breathing. Putting pressure on the uterus, a tense or short psoas can cause cramping. Pushing the oesophagus forwards, a tight upper psoas can cause digestive problems. A short psoas can interfere with the diaphragm fully descending through the abdominal core. http://www.positivehealth.com/articl...?articleid=174

I have a thoracolumbar curve - so this material peaks my interest. Accessing the psoas isn't all that easy but may be worthwhile. Martha Hawes addressed this issue through reflexology and in her memoir states that she feels working on this area was fundamental to improvements in her condition.

Looking for an easier way to address the psoas, I've come across the work of David Berceli Ph.D. His method of accessing this muscle is called Trauma Release Exercise (TRE) and is endorsed by Liz Koch. http://traumaprevention.com/

I have purchased both the book and DVD offered by Berceli - after doing just one session of these exercises, I've noticed an immediate "freeing up" of mobility in the pelvic area (that has lasted 2 days). Has anyone else been stalking the wild psoas? If so what have you learned, and what has been your experience?

Hi. I found that with my bends which are now arthritic and spurred and most fascinating and horrible, that the book by Clair Davies and His daughter Amber has been unbelievably helpful and especially in access to the psoas muscle. I found that releasing that one and the TFL as well as the piriformis and the other shorter hip rotators freed up my pelvis and SI joint so that I could walk.

[gail govan]

Chiro is not a science. They have no particular expertise. And it shows. It is founded on an imaginary concept, "chiropractic subluxations."

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-chiropractic/

Is chiropractic a science? No.
Is chiropractic based on neurology, anatomy and physiology? No.
Are chiropractors doctors of the nervous system? No.
Does chiropractic improve health and quality of life? No.

Hello. I have one comment regarding the chiropractic segment of possibilities. I went for four or five years to physicians, back specialists, in and out of the clinics dragging myself out of the van and into the clinic then back out with maybe a prescription and one after another doctor or practitioner never even knowing enough to take the one x-ray that would have discovered I have scoliosis. For all that time I was doing untold damage trying to work and being in so much pain not in my spine of all things that I could just about not stand it. Who found my scoliosis? A chiropractor. I as a last desparation move went to see him and he knew after looking at my intake papers, what x-ray he should take. And although he helped me for quite awhile, maybe three or four years, and he diagnosed the deformity where the MD's did not, I have had to take responsibility and do some more looking for what I could do to help myself. In my opinion, a chiropractor knew more than the MD's about the nervous system. One MD, a back specialist, saw me and called me an elderly white lady and never once did he even touch my back. With this experience, I could readily come to a conclusion that they do NOT care or that I am freak that nobody cares about. Is that fair? No it is not fair. Surely somewhere there is an MD that cares. I just found my diagnosis with a chiropractor. So we cannot stereotype people or professions. It has been so bad here in the area where I live that I have thought about moving out of this state to find good medical care for my back. It will be okay and I will work it out if God gives me the strength and the time.

[whatishappening]

Thank you so much for replying.

Gail I am so sorry you had to go through that. I am experiencing similar stuff. It has completely boggled my mind that no one wants to look at my bare back. I get the feeling that MD's think that this sort of thing is normal degeneration and unavoidable- or that is what they tell themselves. At the end of the day I think it is about money and who pays whom. Chiropractors are paid directly by the client whereas doctors are paid by insurance companies and the government- they will get paid reagrdless. This is all I can think of.

But I do get what you mean about chiropractors . I feel that they are sort of the last hope and they just do the best they can with their expertise. My chiropractor now is not even charging me anymore. He said because he can't guarantee results. He says he considers me his research project but I know this man is also an active guy in the local community there, and likes to help out, so really I am more like his little charity case. Because ofcourse I was going to run after 3 sessions when nothing really seemed to work. He knows this whole thing is ruining me finanically and emotionally. I am just breaking down figuratively and literally.


I went to a differnt chiropractor in June and that was the used car sales format. But even there I intuitively felt that the chiropractors job is to give out hope when everyone else tells you to F-OFF . Even that guy told me I could basically pay what I could. I mean, I don't know, I just don't know. Ofcourse I am still looking for an MD who is actually interested in the human body but I also work full time and it is just taking so long and I now honestly believe these doctors are few and far between.

In the meantime, I really like my chiroparctor, I mean, I know for sure he has a good heart and he is a good man. But honestly, ya, I don't think he is equipted to know wtf. I mean, geez, I need a friggin spine doctor- man I am just crying right now. But now I think- even spine doctors can not care about the spine , right, I mean, so many doctors just go into medicine to impress their parents etc, they have not real interest or care.

Anyway, so I really don't want to leave this chiropractor because I feel I really need him for moral support- he at least has taken the time to really listen and look at me and yes, he is the first person who said "migod, you are really twisted" Like the others, its as if they can't see in 3 dimensions!!!! Like they have no depth perception! Or don't take the time to look or care.

So he understands I think but I don't know if I should let him stretch my psaos because I think the tight psoas is holding things in place????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????