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  • #46
    Originally posted by mamamax View Post
    May medically advised non surgical treatments be revised to include more promising methods within my lifetime - Amen.
    If that turns out to be blood from a stone, do we continue searching? How long?

    Why can't we have a good MedX with Schroth trained PTs study?
    Because there isn't enough evidence that it could work and plenty of evidence that is it not likely to work to commit the money?

    This is distinguishable from H. pylori.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #47
      Mamamax, I'm beginning to doubt that you think it is even possible that this universe DOESN'T contain an effective alternative/conservative treatment.

      Isn't it at least possible that NO alternative/conservative treatment will work?

      I am actually wondering what you will say to this.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
        Because there isn't enough evidence that it could work and plenty of evidence that is it not likely to work to commit the money?
        According to Linda, the only one of us actually working with orthopedic surgeons, the overarching reason is that surgeons have no interest in studying anything other then surgery because those other methods hold no financial gain for them. End of discussion.

        I'm still just knocked over by the implications of that statement, but it would go a long way to explaining why there's been so much focus on bracing (which requires a doctor's oversight) and so little on a simple exercise like torso rotation or side shifting (which does not). And that explanation has absolutely nothing to do with evidence.

        I would certainly like to think better then that of my surgeon, but I'll defer to Linda's better knowledge.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by hdugger View Post
          It's been over 20 years since I did a lick of research, so I'm not really all that knowledgeable. But I'm pretty sure my analysis is correct.
          Yes - but (and/or however :-) ... one of my pet theories is: given the mind inclined towards research, with added education and experience ... the ability never fades as is simply - ready and waiting to kick in at a moments notice. I think your analytical abilities have survived well in tact :-)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            Mamamax, I'm beginning to doubt that you think it is even possible that this universe DOESN'T contain an effective alternative/conservative treatment.

            Isn't it at least possible that NO alternative/conservative treatment will work?

            I am actually wondering what you will say to this.
            I feel like I'm entering a wormhole. Didn't we just agree that non-surgical treatments were effective for mild to moderately-painful scoliosis which is not progressing? How did those treatments just exit the universe?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              Mamamax, I'm beginning to doubt that you think it is even possible that this universe DOESN'T contain an effective alternative/conservative treatment.

              Isn't it at least possible that NO alternative/conservative treatment will work?

              I am actually wondering what you will say to this.
              I can't believe you don't know what I will say to this.

              Martha Hawes

              Seriously if people believed the same way you are proposing that I should believe - then folks would still be spending several months in plaster casts following surgery - or surgical methods would have never been developed much less refined year after year.

              Myself on the other hand Sharon - acknowledges that you firmly believe there can be no non surgical rehabilitation whatsoever possible. But the knowing of that does not confuse me.

              Serial casting of infants has proven successful. Thank God Min Mehta did not believe as you propose I should.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                I feel like I'm entering a wormhole. Didn't we just agree that non-surgical treatments were effective for mild to moderately-painful scoliosis which is not progressing? How did those treatments just exit the universe?
                Mamamax is not limiting her claims, as I understand them, to that subset.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                  I can't believe you don't know what I will say to this.

                  Martha Hawes

                  Seriously if people believed the same way you are proposing that I should believe - then folks would still be spending several months in plaster casts following surgery - or surgical methods would have never been developed much less refined year after year.

                  Myself on the other hand Sharon - acknowledges that you firmly believe there can be no non surgical rehabilitation whatsoever possible. But the knowing of that does not confuse me.

                  Serial casting of infants has proven successful. Thank God Min Mehta did not believe as you propose I should.

                  Belief doesn't enter into this. If we all believe hard enough, can we build a perpetual motion machine?
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                    Mamamax is not limiting her claims, as I understand them, to that subset.
                    Well for crying out loud - I think some very grand wide sweeping assumptions are being made here

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                      Mamamax is not limiting her claims, as I understand them, to that subset.
                      It might be useful to test that theory

                      I suspect that if we went through a few theoretical cases, the three of us would roughly agree on whether the cases should be referred to surgical or conservative treatment. I think you (Pooka) might recommend surgery earlier in some teen patients, but, beyond that, I think we're all pretty much in agreement.

                      That Mamamax or I might believe that surgery is permenently avoidable (with ongoing treatment) doesn't really affect the surgery vs. conservative treatment question on a case-by-case basis. It's only a theoretical divide.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                        Belief doesn't enter into this. If we all believe hard enough, can we build a perpetual motion machine?
                        Did I say something about belief? No. I said I couldn't believe that you wouldn't know how I would react to some very interesting comments.

                        Anyway - why are we doing this?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                          It might be useful to test that theory

                          I suspect that if we went through a few theoretical cases, the three of us would roughly agree on whether the cases should be referred to surgical or conservative treatment. I think you (Pooka) might recommend surgery earlier in some teen patients, but, beyond that, I think we're all pretty much in agreement.

                          That Mamamax or I might believe that surgery is permenently avoidable (with ongoing treatment) doesn't really affect the surgery vs. conservative treatment question on a case-by-case basis. It's only a theoretical divide.
                          Agreed ...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                            Did I say something about belief?
                            "Seriously if people believed the same way you are proposing that I should believe" -- Mamamax

                            This word is not necessary. People ACCEPT evidence in science. People WITHHOLD acceptance absent evidence in science.

                            Can I assume we are trying to be scientific here?
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                              I can't believe you don't know what I will say to this.

                              Martha Hawes
                              Why are so many people still needing fusion in your opinion now that the world has Hawes?
                              Last edited by Pooka1; 02-08-2010, 03:09 PM.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                                "Seriously if people believed the same way you are proposing that I should believe" -- Mamamax

                                This word is not necessary. People ACCEPT evidence in science. People WITHHOLD acceptance absent evidence in science.

                                Can I assume we are trying to be scientific here?
                                What if we subsituted the word "theory" for "belief"? In the sense that it's a viewpoint supported by some emperical evidence, and logically coherent, but not yet scientifically tested.

                                Comment

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