scoliosis and fibromyalgia

[Diana Black]

I've been reading with interest the posts on the possible links between polio and scoliosis and they made me wonder if there is a similar link with fibromyalgia? It's just that several posters have mentioned that they have both. I only have scoliosis, but my sister has fibromyalgia and has about as much trouble with her back as i do. Could the same basic thing (genetic flaw or whatever) take either form, perhaps?
Any ideas/personal experience?

[Rayknox]

Fibromyalgia in my experience is caused by spinal twists. Remove the twists and the fibromyalgia symtoms disappear. I have just treated a female patient in such discomfort she was in hospital for a few weeks. Foot pain, leg pain shoulder pain headaches. She has no pain now at all. Took 4 treatments.
Don't expect anyone to believe this but it is fact.

[nora b]

Hi Rayknox,

Can you elaborate on your idea of fibroimyalgia and spinal twists being linked?

I have not heard this before.

Thanks,

Nora

[Rayknox]

Hi Nora b
First of all if you look at all the symtoms of fibromyalgia, they are all the same as symtoms caused by spinal problems- I have tried to explain the treatment I do recently on a forum here but just got ridiculed because I have no x-rays to prove what I am doing. (related to scoliosis). However I regularly get back pain patients with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and when we untwist the spine the symtoms disappear I know - you can't do that! I hear that all that time.
I contacted a fibromyalgia support group to come and see but they weren't interested and didn't even ring back to check it out more. ( I had offered free treatment to someone of their choice)
My patients are generally happy. Others are put off by medical people who are not open to anything new.
ray.

[javaboy]

Hi Nora,
from my understanding, they diagnose fibromyalgia by going off the number of inflamed/knotted trigger points you have in your muscles, and their spread (i.e. it has to be generally across your body, rather than localised in one area).
Now this is a bit of an inexact science, as it's the same diagnosis method as Myofascial Pain Syndrome (chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT). So in theory you could be diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and then have it cured by physical therapy. It's a bit of a grey area, for sure!

[yfei]

I have both

Hi Nora b
First of all if you look at all the symtoms of fibromyalgia, they are all the same as symtoms caused by spinal problems- I have tried to explain the treatment I do recently on a forum here but just got ridiculed because I have no x-rays to prove what I am doing. (related to scoliosis). However I regularly get back pain patients with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and when we untwist the spine the symtoms disappear I know - you can't do that! I hear that all that time.
I contacted a fibromyalgia support group to come and see but they weren't interested and didn't even ring back to check it out more. ( I had offered free treatment to someone of their choice)
My patients are generally happy. Others are put off by medical people who are not open to anything new.
ray.

Hi, Ray. I have myofacial and a progressive scoliosis, even though the curves are mild. It cause me a lot of pain. I know the pain come along with the curve, but everybody says scoliosis should not cause that much pain. Where are you located?
YF

[Rayknox]

We are in N.Ireland.
Twists in the spine can cause severe pain. Upper thoracic and cervical give headaches, arm pain and shoulder pain etc. Mid spine twists can give pain in the rib area at the front of the body like a lung pain. Low back twists can cause lots of problems from circulation problems to bowel and bladder problems to low back pain leg pain, sciatica etc.
Sometimes these twists are very slight and do not show up on x-rays or scans, but the effects are real enough.

[structural75]

Now this is a bit of an inexact science, as it's the same diagnosis method as Myofascial Pain Syndrome (chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT). So in theory you could be diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and then have it cured by physical therapy. It's a bit of a grey area, for sure!

Myofascial refers to the muscular fascia that houses the muscle cells... it's not so much a problem with the muscles (muscle fibers) themselves, but with the fibroblasts within the myofascia/fascia that autonomically contract (they are smooth muscle cells rather than skeletal muscle cells that "muscles' are comprised of). Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why."

PT is not a very good approach for this and could even make it worse. I had someone call just the other day who was 'diagnose' with MPS and has been in PT for the past two years. She has gotten progressively worse... .

Regarding "twists" in the spine.... I don't doubt that when these rotations/fixations and such are addressed that the spine and body as a whole function with less stress/strain and pain diminishes or resolves... but it is not the only or primary cause of these conditions... It's a bit too generalized. The spine may in fact be "twisting" to compensate for more severe compromises of other structures.. nerves, organs, dura, etc.... Remove the rotations without addressing the underlaying problems and you may end up removing the bodies only protective and adaptive mechanism it needed... causing potentially further harm.

I just have a hard time accepting that everything comes back to rotations/bends in the spine and that the health and function of the whole system will be restored by doing that alone... The reality is that it's far more complicated than that... and their are plenty of folks with healthy 'straight' spines who have many of these problems as well.

Just my two cents... Although I'm sure it's value has depreciated by now though.

structural

[Rayknox]

Structural,
With all due respect, I think you are talking rubbish to suggest that removing spinal twists will only remove strain. Every twist has the potential to pressurise nerves which can cause pain or cause organs to function improperly. Folks with healthy 'straight' backs come to me all the time with MRI's and x-ray reports showing nothing. They all have spinal twists. They all have pain or problems of some sort. Physical therapy is completely useless in resolving most of these twists so there is no point in comparing this to TAMARS. Most of my patients have been through every sort of treatment under the sun. My last serious fibromyalgia patient had just been released from a two week hospital stay due to the seriousness of her condition. She has now no symtoms( 6 weeks from last treatment).

"Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why." ie you have pain , we don't know why so lets call it a fancy name and you will feel better.

[structural75]

With all due respect, I think you are talking rubbish to suggest that removing spinal twists will only remove strain. Every twist has the potential to pressurise nerves which can cause pain or cause organs to function improperly.

No, ...I think you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't suggest that removing vertebral rotational fixations will only remove strain in the soft tissue... I said that the theory, as it goes by some, that removing these "twists" will resolve many or all musculoskeletal dysfunctions throughout the body is a bit overzealous, over-simplified and short-sighted.

The second part of the quote above is beginning to sound like chiropractic theory... That the root of all illness stems from nerve interference at the neural foreamen of the vertebrae, and consequently if you adjust the vertabrae, one way or another, nerve interference will be eliminated and the body will resume normal systemic function. That theory was weak to start and has since been very out dated. Granted, sometimes this can occur and lead to those types of problems, but the fact remains that nerve impingement can and does occur at sites distant from the spine with the same effect on soft tissue and relevant organ systems. A nerve can be impinged anywhere along it's path to it's ultimate destination... also known as peripheral nerve impingement (constricted by the surrounding nerve sheaths/fascial sheaths or other soft tissue/bony structures.

It might be of interest to note that there have been studies done on spinal mechanics that have shown that 'normal' rotation, flexion, extension and sidebending does NOT impinge upon the nerve roots exiting the spine unless there is abnormal conditions present such as spondylosis, osteophytic growths, disc collapse/degeneration, etc. ...However, under normal biomechanical movement nerves have been shown to have plenty of room... . In fact the studies showed that it was actually difficult to 'pinch' the nerve in a healthy spine without these conditions.

Folks with healthy 'straight' backs come to me all the time with MRI's and x-ray reports showing nothing. They all have spinal twists.

When I said "straight" I meant straight... in other words, no rotations/"twists"... . X-rays would in fact show rotations of the spine if taken properly from the right angles... but that's besides the point.

Ray, don't get me wrong here... My post was primarily to mention that PT is not a cure all for MPS... . I'm sure that TAMARS has in fact helped many folks and I do think it's valid and an important contribution. I just have a hard time hearing about anything that works off such over-simplified premises... The body is far too complex for those theories to hold water all the time.

"Myofascial Pain Syndrome is a fancy way of saying "You have pain in the soft tissue and we don't know why." ie you have pain , we don't know why so lets call it a fancy name and you will feel better.

Is that for the patients' insecurity in not knowing what's wrong, or the Doctors' insecurity? We put so much pressure on Doctors to have all the answers... unfortunately they don't.. there is more that is not known about the human body than there is known... and even what we "know" is constantly being challenged and revised. I actually have sympathy for them in that they're placed in such a tight position to provide "answers" to some things that just don't have simple answers or solutions.

[Rayknox]

It might be of interest to note that there have been studies done on spinal mechanics that have shown that 'normal' rotation, flexion, extension and sidebending does NOT impinge upon the nerve roots exiting the spine unless there is abnormal conditions present such as spondylosis, osteophytic growths, disc collapse/degeneration, etc. ...However, under normal biomechanical movement nerves have been shown to have plenty of room... . In fact the studies showed that it was actually difficult to 'pinch' the nerve in a healthy spine without these conditions.

It should not have taken a genius to work that one out. Otherwise we would all be cripples.

When I said "straight" I meant straight... in other words, no rotations/"twists"... . X-rays would in fact show rotations of the spine if taken properly from the right angles... but that's besides the point.

Time after time the reports the patients bring with them-x-ray reports and MRI's- state that the spine is normally alligned.

Ray, don't get me wrong here... My post was primarily to mention that PT is not a cure all for MPS

TAMARS is not PT as you know it.

That the root of all illness stems from nerve interference at the neural foreamen of the vertebrae,

Iam not saying that all illness stems from interference here. I am saying that its effects are not fully recognised due to poor analysis methods.

The second part of the quote above is beginning to sound like chiropractic theory

Chiropractic adjustments are out of the ark as well.

[structural75]

It should not have taken a genius to work that one out. Otherwise we would all be cripples.

This is not directed at you, but... if it's so 'obvious' then why are so many chiropractors in existence? And why do they claim that everyone should get adjustments to maintain health? And why do so many Doctors suspect nerve impingement when someone complains of back pain???

Also on that note... If that's so obvious then why are you suggesting that "twists" will put "pressure" on nerves???

Time after time the reports the patients bring with them-x-ray reports and MRI's- state that the spine is normally alligned.

As I'm sure you know, read the reports with a grain of salt. There job is to look for 'more concerning' abnormalities.... most radiologists and Drs don't see a problem with misaligned vertabrae unless they're compromising surrounding structures. I wouldn't rely on radiology reports for that kind of assessment.

TAMARS is not PT as you know it.

Yes, I know... I didn't call TAMARS Physical Therapy... My original post was in reference to Javaboy's comment regarding "chronic muscle problems across a wide area of your body that can be resolved by PT.".

Hope that clarifies things from my end... sorry for the heat.... .....

[Rayknox]

What I was implying was that the majority of the population moves and twists and bends without any pain or problem. The ones who cannot bend, twist or move without pain generally have twists in their spine. When the twists are removed the pain disappears so obviously the twists are causing the pain.
There are so many chiropractors about because so many people have back problems, and no one is helping them. The adjustments they do are, in my view, brutal, and often give no lasting relief, so hence the patient has to have treatment over and over and over again.

[whatishappening]

Hello- I know this is an old thread but I am hoping to revive it. I would also so much appreciate getting help on this- I will travel if need be.

It seems this is what I have been suffering from.

Regarding spinal twists, the spine cannot rotate in isolation wrt the rest of the body: it must drag the rest of the body with it! Pulling on the muscles and fascia so that the bottoms of the feet remain in contact with the ground. I feel that this is what is happening to me. I just has a monster case of illiotibeal band syndrome and planatar fascitis- and it hasn't stopped- my quads are feeling it, the other leg now is feeling it- everything is feeling it. Arms too. What do you think of that?

Now huge question: what if the initial small rotation was from a small curve idiopathic congenital scoliosis, which then got amplified over the course of a lifetime (with the person unaware) and then at menopause as the lack of estrogen weakens the fascia, the system begins to collpase. Can you still correct the spinal twisting???

Please if Rayknox or Structural are still around, I would be so grateful for any info at all, including where to go to get help.

Please and thank you!

[Rayknox]

Fibromyalgia

Hi there,
Yes I am still around and still treating scoliosis and fibromyalgia(among other problems). With more years of treatments I have obviously more experience. Fibromyalgia appears to have the same cause as scoliosis in the majority of cases ie a fall on the end of the spine. This can happen by falling on the pavement, off a bicycle, falling down stairs etc. the spine is compressed and really the medical profession have no idea how to treat the problem.
If the fall is in childhood, scoliosis is the result,( or a deformed spine )as the child gets a growth spurt. If the fall is after the growth spurt the deformity does not pose as much of a problem.
This type of a fall causes problems and pain over a wide area. Permanent headaches, numbness , sciatica, arm and back pain etc etc are the usual result.
Any fibromyalgia patients I treat have had this type of injury, and the unfortunate thing is that x-rays do not show up the problem so the patients are often deemed to have a mental issue.
Because of all the scepticism, all patients in this clinic are personal referrals, which is better anyway. If you want a contact I have treated, I can oblige.