Dr. Woggon - Clear Institute treatment

[Rosemarie]

More about my CLEAR experience with Dr. Woggon

You wrote....
QUESTION: I am curious what kind of exercises you have been prescribed. What is their goal, specifically? ANSWER: The exercises are based on each patient's x-rays and are specific for each individual. No two scoliosis spines are the same. The exercises are also ISOMETRIC rather than ISOTONIC. (Core muscles respond to isometric exercises.)
QUESTION: While I am happy to hear that you've achieved some improvement with conservative means, I would like to fully understand the means. Woggon writes in one of his little papers that he conceives of scoliosis, and its treatment, as beginning in the cervical region.
The major "righting reflex" to gravity is located in the head and neck.
The Schroth hypothesis, and treatment, are the opposite. The pelvis is misaligned, due often to problems in feet and legs. If all these are not addressed, the treatment is unlikely to be very effective for long since the pelvis is the foundation to which the spine is indirectly attached.
ANSWER: The pelvis is addressed with exercises, adjustments, blocking, and a sacral belt. The pelvis is not the foundation. If it were, we couldn't walk on uneven ground.
Appropriate evidence is available at the CLEAR CLINICS throughout the US. I hope this has been helpful.

[Writer]

I am curious what kind of exercises you have been prescribed. What is their goal, specifically?

While I am happy to hear that you've achieved some improvement with conservative means, I would like to fully understand the means. Woggon writes in one of his little papers that he conceives of scoliosis, and its treatment, as beginning in the cervical region.

The Schroth hypothesis, and treatment, are the opposite. The pelvis is misaligned, due often to problems in feet and legs. If all these are not addressed, the treatment is unlikely to be very effective for long since the pelvis is the foundation to which the spine is indirectly attached.

I don't know that these two concepts are reconcilable, but am willing to listen to solid explanations, and of course to see appropriate evidence.

[Rosemarie]

I have just returned from Woggon's Minnesota Clinic having gained phenomenal results!

You wrote that you would be interested to hear from anyone who's been treated by Dr. Dennis Woggon...Well, here I am! Woggon is a highly skillful, extremely intelligent, excellent chiropractor who has dedicated his chiropractic practice to chiropractic leadership, education, advancement and research. I completed two weeks of intensive treatments with Dr. Woggon, Dr. Chong, and staff at the St. Cloud Chiropractic and Scoliosis Center in St. Cloud, Minnesota (March 30-April 10, 2009). I am now continuing Woggon's scoliosis treatments at home with exercises and his scoliosis traction chair twice daily...as well as chiropractic adjustments at my local chiropractor's clinic in Savannah, Georgia, (Dr. Mark Domanski and Dr. Michelle Fekete).
Unfortunately, the pictures of the pre- and post- x-rays can't be attached here. However, I have attached an abridged summary report of my two weeks of intensive treatments for my severely deformed scoliosis spine. If you would like the full report, let me know. I will send to you a copy. Here is a portion of my report following the two intensive treatment weeks at Dr. Dennis Woggon's St. Cloud, MN, clinic along with my concluding comments:

Pre- Post Treatment Findings

After two weeks of intensive treatment at the St. Cloud Chiropractic and Scoliosis Center, on April 10, 2009, Rosemarie’s final x-rays and comprehensive assessments revealed the following:

1) lateral cervical stress x-ray with 2# headweights and limited vision horizon glasses reveal a lordotic curve with 65% loss of curve indicating 11 pounds of apparent head weight with 0.1 inches of forward head posture, dysfunction of cervical vertebra C2,3,4 and 5.
2) right cervicodorsal COB angle from T3 to T6 3 degrees;
3) left thoracic COB angle from T7 to T10 27 degrees;
4) right lumbodorsal COB angle T11 to L3 48 degrees.

Rosemarie’s thoracic “hump” is visibly decreased; her pain is substantially lessened; and her optimism for a healthy remainder of her life is greatly increased. She will go back to work soon!

Rosemarie's note...

Fifty-five years after my scoliosis was diagnosed (at age 10), I left the St. Cloud Chiropractic and Scoliosis Center in St. Cloud, Minnesota with renewed strength and courage to continue my battle against the crippling effects of “idiopathic adolescent scoliosis,” having finally found help for my debilitating disorder/syndrome. No longer a candidate for surgery, I realize that the cost of Woggon's treatment is incidental compared to the benefit of a straighter, stronger, healthier spine for the remainder of my life (I am now 65 years old). I cannot sing the praises loud enough for Dr. Woggon, Dr. SuYen Chong, and the other St. Cloud Chiropractic Scoliosis Center staff—Margie, Ashley, Emily, Rachel, Dr. Mark Brenner. Let the dance begin! My back is soon to be (with diligent exercises, patience, and care)…..a normally curved spine. Who could have imagined such a miracle!...........Dr. Dennis Woggon, that’s who!

If anyone reading this post would like more information about my experiences during the two week intensive scoliosis treatments at Woggon's Chiropractic and Scoliosis Center in St. Cloud, MN, let me know, and I will be happy to share.

Here's to healthy, normally curved spines!

Rosemarie
rosemarie_stallworth@hotmail.com

I'm still a bit skeptical on Dr. Woggon's claims. Success in treating scoliosis via this method depends first and foremost on the "flexibility" of the curve. A curve that is very rigid and fixed (i.e., does not improve in the supine position versus AP or PA) is unlikely to respond to physical therapy OR chiropractic. Secondly, any improvement will require some type of maintenance. This goes for both physical therapy AND chiropractic manipulation. If you're familiar with the "vicious cycle" theory, this means that both of these techniques do help correct the "asymmetrical loading", but until the root cause is addressed or the asymmetrical loading totally reversed, the curvature will probably restart the cycle.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's been treated by Dr. Woggon and if they have been able to maintain any correction.

[Sherie]

Ruth,
I can totally relate to your experience. We discovered Sheena's scoliosis when it was 25L, we were told to watch and wait. I also never expected this to progress because I knew my sister and dad both had scoliosis but were living a perfectly normal life. Come to find out, their's is mild, it appears they have more of a problem with leg length difference which probably caused the scoli. By the time we went back at 6 month, she had progressed to 35 and we put her in a hard brace. That was a miserable experience, that's when I started looking for alternatives. We then tried the Spinecor but she was at 42L at that point. By the way, we never saw the doctor's in Montreal, I only spoke to Dr. Couillard on the phone and she told me a lumbar curve >40 is very stiff and may not respond well to bracing. I had to make a decision what was the best thing we could do at that point. For me, it was between Clear Institute, Schroth or going to Montreal and seeing if they could do anything else with the brace. I finally decided on Clear after I spoke to several people who had positive experiences with that. One guy said he completely reduced his curve, but it was <20. Anyways, you can see for us this was a very frustrating experience. It's especially difficult when you're so hopeful and then it doesn't work out.

When her curve reached 60, that's when I gave in to the idea of surgery. I too was very much against it right from the start therefore made it much more difficult to accept for me and Sheena. It's probably in Esme's best interest to at least let her know this will be a possibility. We know this is the best thing we can do at this point but it still weighs very heavy on my mind. When she has surgery and I see she'll be ok, then I'll be able to breath.

My experience with chiropractors is that they are very enthusiastic about what they do and convey a feeling of genuine interest, which may be true but be careful about their claims. The only chiro. who I felt was 100% honest with us was not one who regularly dealt with scoliosis but he had the Pneumex equipment and agreed to try. He said we should know within a month wether it was working , it didn't (he was very disappointed by the way).

I think you have to do whatever feels right to you and is a decision you can live with, that's why I tried all these treatments despite the lack of evidence that it could help. You never know if it will work for your daughter unless you try. Take care,

[rtremb]

Melissa:

Thanks for your post. It is comforting to know that the children who have to have surgery get through it and recover relatively quickly. You must be so relieved to see Nicole resuming her usual activities like school work and shifting her focus back onto "good grades" again. I have followed your story closely, anxiously reading your posts to learn of Nicole's progress.

While I can't admit to myself yet that Esme needs surgery, and I know if her curves get near 60 we are at the end of the road for alternatives, but in the meantime we feel we have to try something. I still can't quite wrap my head around even the thought of the surgery for her and often feel desperately upset even angry this is happening to her. After reading so many posts on this forum I sometimes think we are still in the "desperate to fix it" phase and feel kind of silly. I wonder if there is anyone out there who actually succeeded in holding back the curves that are around 50 degrees!!

[rtremb]

Thank you for the info. It is such a shame after all the effort and expense that your daughter's curves progressed anyway - you really tried hard to hold them back. I really hope everything goes smoothly with the surgery for your daughter. Your story is making me cautious and less optimistic as we proceed in deciding what is best for Esme. Your daughter's Pettibon routine sounds very similar to Esme's. Our chiropractor is so sincere it is hard to believe this won't work but your daughter is proof it probably doesn't......at least not for everyone...

Dr. Horseman has a long power point presentation which he uses to train other chiropractors. We will be getting a copy of it tomorrow from our chiropractor - hopefully this will show some real results from the "revised" Pettibon treatment. It includes an analysis of the various braces - he showed this part to us briefly when we were in Peterborough. Will post again once we have watched this.

Dr. Rivard did tell us the Spinecor had a 10-15% chance of working and really we don't have a lot of other options. I suppose Cheneau is an option but we'd have to know Esme will actually wear the brace before we fly off to Spain or something........!!

I have a lot of regret that we did not receive proper advice when Esme's curves were below 20 degrees (or realize we needed to research more). We did not know her curves could get this large. We were misled by her brother having neurofibromatosis into thinking only children with a medical condition have progressive curves and went on to have surgery. Also, I have a lumbar scoliosis, discovered when my Mum was hemming a skirt for me, which has never progressed past the mid-20's. In hindsight we were so wrong but we really had no idea what could be coming. There is a lot of guilt with this which on one level I doubt I will ever get over - how could I have been so stupid not to have googled just a bit.

I was dropping Esme off at a party last weekend and was chatting with the Mum about Esme's scoliosis. She casually mentioned that her nine year old daughter had a scoliosis. I asked if she was wearing a brace. The Mum said that the GP had said it was no big deal. I took a really deep breath then told her some of our story, advised her to ask for a referral to an orthopaedic surgeon right away and look at the Spinecor brace website. While I am no medical expert - I just couldn't keep quiet!! If only I had had someone to warn me it might have made a big difference.

My daughter intends to write to the Mayor of Ottawa and the politicians to ask why there is no scoliosis screening in the schools here in Ottawa. I do a lot of community work and know the Mayor/local/provincial politicians so I can probably get her in to see them if she wishes too. I have already written to the provincial Minister of Health Promotion about the Spinecor being covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (which it isn't right now - only TLSO) - a lot less expensive than surgery for the health system. So maybe we can become advocates for better information & treatment options for future scoliotics and some good will come of this...for now anyway it may be a good distraction and one way for Esme and I to feel better about this - trying to help others.

[Sherie]

Ruth:

I sent you a PM with my email, I could go into more detail about the program she was on because it was quite extensive. But in a nutshell, the Clear Institute protocal did include weighting, traction w/vibration and a whole series of exercises. The routine took 1.5 hours, 2x/day at home. We went to Minnesota to see Dr. Woggon for the one week of intensive therapy, we were basically there the whole day except for lunch. I did see some improvements on the before and after xrays, but quite obviously, that didn't hold. There was no one here in Houston doing this type of treatment at the time so we bought all the equipment necessary (it was very expensive too). We finally threw in the towel after 4 months, she had gotten worse in that time. I can't say she did the exercises 100% faithfully, but she gave it a fair shot. She was having to get up at 5:30 in the morning to get everything done and then repeat again in the evening, it was pretty hard. I had also considered the Schroth method but decided on Clear Institute because Schroth wants you to wear a hard brace in that program (obviously you don't have to though) and they pretty much say you will need to do exercises your whole life to maintain the scoliosis, but at least that's realistic.

I'm glad someone's finally admitting that the correction won't hold, that was always our concern. It's difficult to do all that therapy day after day and not know if the results are even going to hold for one hour once you quit. Did they have any long term results to share with you? Did they say this would be a lifelong commitment or do they believe permanent reduction can be achieved and what evidence can they show you to prove this? I think those would be the most important things you need to know before you invest a lot of time and money. I don't necessarily regret the decisions we made, but knowing what I do now, I would not have put her through that.

[gerbo]

you and nicole are an example and proof that there is hope regardless.............

[MATJESNIC]

Ruth,

When you describe your daughter, you could very well be talking about my Nicole. She is the most motivated, dedicated child when it comes to school, dance, organization, etc. She wore her Spinecor with a vengence and her daily motto was "I will not have surgery." She also feared shots, talk of blood, etc.

Although she did everything right, she learned that so much in life is out of our control. Hence, the Serenity Prayer, which I told to her daily. She did everything right and needed surgery anyway. This beautiful child who used to cry as a baby because her hand got dirty or her shoe came off would surely not be able to handle surgery. But handle it she did. Sure, she drove the nurses crazy and they probably all quit the next day to become accountants or librarians.

But I have been watching her with her teachers sitting at the dining room table, calculating math problems, learning Spanish, doing science experiments, and I am in awe of her. Everything she went through and now going back to her life, worrying about catching up and getting good grades. The human body is amazing. How quickly these children begin to recover. It is truly a miracle.

[Sherie]

Ruth

There was so much involved I think it might be easier if I discussed this with you on the phone. I also have manuals that were made for Sheena and I could fax the pages showing the treatments to you if you have access to a fax machine. Let me know if this would work for you and we can exchange phone #'s by PM.

[rtremb]

Sherie:

From your posts I read that your daughter did the intensive Pettibon treatment and she wore Spinecor. Yesterday we went to Peterborough, Ontario to see Dr. Horseman, DC about a new Pettibon approach to scoliosis management. He told us Pettibon have found that they can decrease the curve with the intensive treatment but are admitting it doesn't last. He says they need to work on muscle strength too to hold any correction achieved - this takes longer. He recommends two day visits for intensive treatment every couple of months. The treatments now include a TLSO customized brace for four hours a day, with a continuation of the Pettibon exercises, weights, traction, etc.

We would like Esme to wear Spinecor for the remaining hours of the day to keep constant pressure on the spine. I notice from your posts that the lumbar curve was your main concern - for us the thoracic is the structural curve...lumbar is compensatory. I am wondering if you think the approach outlined above is worth pursuing based on your own experience with the combination of Pettibon and Spinecor? I am wondering how regularly your daughter had chiro Pettibon treatments and what treatments she received from the chiropractor? Also how often she do the exercises?

Also - were Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coullard aware of the combination of Spinecor and chiro treatments and if so, were they okay with this? We thought we saw on their website that no other treatments should be received other than the Spinecor and their physiotherapy program.

It is really hard to decide what to do and any advice or experience you have with this would be most appreciated. Thanks.

Ruth Tremblay

[gerbo]

i don't think that I ever got on particularly well with math algorithms. (whatever they are)

[rtremb]

Gerbo:
The Rubik's Cube can be solved using assorted math algorithms which can be learned - I do believe you have to be able to think three dimensionally though.

[gerbo]

(She decided she would learn how to do the Rubik's Cube and mastered it in one month - she can do it in 28 seconds now and will be competing in the Speed Cubing competitions in near future).

you mean to say there is a logic to it which you can learn?? Is it not pure luck then?/ That's what i always have been counting on. needless to say i never resolved the cube, three same colours in a row is the best i ever got, got nice patterns though.

good to hear she is so motivated. i am sure though that i do not need to tell you there is a point that you need to prepare her for the possibility that she might need surgery, and that really surgery isn't that bad!! There is a risk that surgery becomes synonimous with failure, which it isn't as so many here will happily confirm (melissa and nicole being the most recent people having taken that route and coming out smiling)

[rtremb]

Gerbo:

Thanks for the heads up about the website being a chiro website - will ask Dr. Rivard about the whole body vibration exercises and what he thinks of them.

My daughter is happily doing all the exercises, yoga, etc. - she never, ever complains. She is very much against having the surgery and is determined to do all she can to help herself - when she makes her mind up about something she can be very, very determined - this can be both good and bad!! (She decided she would learn how to do the Rubik's Cube and mastered it in one month - she can do it in 28 seconds now and will be competing in the Speed Cubing competitions in near future). She has a very good understanding about the mechanics of scoliosis and how the exercises can potentially help her. She is very annoyed with the surgeons for not telling her about Spinecor when her curves were lower and wants to write to them about it asking them to start recommending it to children with lower curves.

She hates all medicines, needles, medical tests, etc. so going through a surgery this major with her would be an ordeal for everyone - to take a blood sample three people had to hold her down last time! Fortunately, she likes exercising. I really hope the exercises and bracing help to hold her curves - she does understand, sad though it is, that they may not.