Side Planks

[edouard]

Sorry, I didnt realize you were talking only about adults. I posted this case http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...=magecs+adults Had she fusion after Magec? Ok, it was the first case in an adult and with a giant curve. The purpose of Magec was to not only delay fusion in kids/teens but also avoid it. Others non fusion techniques seems to be trying with adults too, but as I know, the purpose is to avoid fusion. Certainly if you are decided to have fusion, I think that the best would be to have it as soon as you can.

For adult i see it different, the main benefit for magec will be to straight the spine slowly in several months, not to avoid fusion.

Indeed, in the current surgery I can see 3 big issues that i am sure bring many problems after. One of them is that the surgeon will straight your spine in few minuts after putting screw and rods. This is violent for the body, magnetic rods can solve that issue, i don t want my spine to be straight in few minuts.

Other 2 problems are

- Putting lot of screw are quite violent i don t like them so much (implanet startup is solving that http://www.implanet-invest.com/video-jazz-27 )
- In the current fusion technique there is a high failed rate and it cannot after be easily monitored if it was successfull. (aurora spine another startup try to solve that)

In my case luckily i can wait i am pretty confident what i described will come, patents can show you many innovation in advance.

Also today, for economic and demographic reasons because now they are really trying to target adults (not only severe cases) much more than before and also they need to have better solutions to reduce costs.

That s why in the meantime i am interested in side plank for example but it will never replace a clever surgery that solve the 3 big issues i decribed and i hope will come before i will have no choice to get surgery because of pain even if I recognize that current surgery even if for me is not clever have saved many people from pain and in some cases from death.

[flerc]

Sorry, I didnt realize you were talking only about adults. I posted this case http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...=magecs+adults Had she fusion after Magec? Ok, it was the first case in an adult and with a giant curve. The purpose of Magec was to not only delay fusion in kids/teens but also avoid it. Others non fusion techniques seems to be trying with adults too, but as I know, the purpose is to avoid fusion. Certainly if you are decided to have fusion, I think that the best would be to have it as soon as you can.

[edouard]

May you copy a link about this? It's not what I understand about Magec.

Sure flerc, her name is Deirdre McDonnell in Ireland

She did a podcast in todayfm (a national famous radio in ireland) where she explain all that and mention clearly that at the end she will have fusion

http://www.todayfm.com/Deirdre-McDon...t-Bionic-Woman

Podcast link : http://www.todayfm.com/player/podcas...t_Bionic_Woman

[flerc]

Once the curve is reduced fusion must be done (the first adult with magec will be fused i can confirm that 100% i get the info).

May you copy a link about this? It's not what I understand about Magec.

[edouard]

Who here in fact he's doing the side plank ? will be nice to know

Nothing to be with side plank, I had one thought is that in fact if our rib cage was not able to be deformed, the curve will not be able to progress so much.

I believe new surgery technics will be able to restore the curve progressively like magec rods done in first adult recently. I contacted magec about that but the guy doesn't want to tell me more
regarding more adults target objective they have.

But expandable magnetic rods are the future, look at that patent from Depuy (one of the biggest)

http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US8568457

+ http://patentimages.storage.googleap...029-D00001.png

They target many parts in a more clever way than magec including rib cage deformations.

Once the curve is reduced fusion must be done (the first adult with magec will be fused i can confirm that 100% i get the info)
I believe future of (clever) fusion is that http://www.auroraspine.us/ really nice and strong, no screw and fusion success is 100%, clean and quite immediate , aurora told me that today they don't do scoliosis but their patent shows they target it clearly (it is amzing to see how they are afraid to share that, may too much money in that market ...)

But before having a (clever) operation one day, i hope that with something like side plank i can really reduce my curve before.

[flerc]

I am really interested in Side Planks but like everybody questions are does it really works ? and how to do it in our specific case ?
For first question it will be great to have a solid proof study/case with x-ray. The second question is linked to the first, if the first is ok i am quite sure that many people with scoliosis are ok to pay a specialist like mr Fishman to have specific course designed.

I look the book alistair mention about yoga & scoliosis where mr Fishman was involved, at the book introduction :

"About 25 years ago, we were confronted with a frail, older woman with 113 degrees of an idiopathic, rotatory, thoracolumbar scoliosis: a tremendous C-curve."
"We took an x-ray and were astounded by the results. The new scoliosis series showed a curve of 68 degrees!"
3 years after -> "When the progress we were making had slowed down nearly to a standstill, her curve was around 30 degrees. She retained this level of scoliosis for several years."

What to think about that ? of course there is no name or contact to join on that success case, no X-ray, i mean with such result that person should be famous, even most advanced surgery cannot reduce such curve as that. It will be great if he can give us that contact person.

Certainly I have never thought that very much significative reduction were possible in giant curves, mainly in adults but if it would be known what may be and what not, nobody would does studies. That case of th book is even more amazing than the 120º of the study, but if we'd know about the before-after x-rays we should to trust in it. This is a study in a medical journal, so we should to trust in what it says and certainly we may be sure that nobody a priori may prove it's something imposible. In fact, it's obvious that some tissues are fighting against gravity force, otherwise it would happens this also in those few seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-AhnuA0Gqk So if those tissues would be enough resistants, the curve could not increase any more and if it would be remodeled, the curve may decrease.
Is logic to think that the deformed tissues are those fighting against the gravity force. I have read once in a site which are exactly those tissues and why could not be exactly those modified by the Side Plank?

[Pooka1]

That seems to be a case of hysterical scoliosis based on the description. Not structural.

Also if that 25 year old case was included in Fisman's paper then I think he is cherry-picking and I would like to know if that case was independently measured.

[edouard]

Edouard, is really great for me to know someone else really interested in the Side Plank.
After these few months, I think now that the before-after x rays value are right, and the study was done by honest people. But also that effectively it seems that the 120º curve was degenerative. I thought as something impossible really a giant curve arising after growth, but what the hell may I know. Anyway I think that some important IS curve should have been also reduced. I don't believe the curves values could have been something as 6º, 8º, 12º,....30º, 35º, 40º, 120º. Also I don't believe that all IS curves were mild and I hope that at least one was an adult case.
But anyway a fantastic reduction in degenerative giant curve suggest it could be also useful in IS. Certainly just only the existence of such curve imply that not everything is a matter of bones and discs. Fusion only modify those tissues, difficult (but not impossible) to be modified in a non surgical way. That, I think was an argument to think that non surgical treatments cannot reach a significative modification in the structure, but certainly it seems obvious that other tissues has to do, since is supposed that vertebras were not wedged and it cannot be imagined (at least I cannot) that a change only in discs may lead to such extreme curve. Other tissues need to be in a right state in order to keep an aligned spine. And in a degenerative case, improving those other tissues is almost enough at seems to be showed in this study. To see if it would be enough in IS we'd need to enter in other considerations, but it would be clear the power of soft tissues and that they may be altered significatively in a non surgical way.
And certainly I think is not clear if vertebras were nothing wedged.. It's a fact at least in adults rats that vertebras in a curve tail suffer a significant wedge.
So I think that even if it was the only one big adult curve, anyway Side Plank shoud to be useful in adult IS cases.

I am really interested in Side Planks but like everybody questions are does it really works ? and how to do it in our specific case ?
For first question it will be great to have a solid proof study/case with x-ray. The second question is linked to the first, if the first is ok i am quite sure that many people with scoliosis are ok to pay a specialist like mr Fishman to have specific course designed.

I look the book alistair mention about yoga & scoliosis where mr Fishman was involved, at the book introduction :

"About 25 years ago, we were confronted with a frail, older woman with 113 degrees of an idiopathic, rotatory, thoracolumbar scoliosis: a tremendous C-curve."
"We took an x-ray and were astounded by the results. The new scoliosis series showed a curve of 68 degrees!"
3 years after -> "When the progress we were making had slowed down nearly to a standstill, her curve was around 30 degrees. She retained this level of scoliosis for several years."

What to think about that ? of course there is no name or contact to join on that success case, no X-ray, i mean with such result that person should be famous, even most advanced surgery cannot reduce such curve as that. It will be great if he can give us that contact person.

[flerc]

This is not a Schroth thread (and I don't want to see it closed), so if you want to continue discrediting Schroth method, please do it here

Which is your information source leading you to get such conclusions?
Did you read the Schroth book? Did you followed enough the Weiss' Clinic outcomes?

[Pooka1]

I certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner,

Schroth practitioners don't have any evidence for what is good for your curve either because the method was invented by a lay person who didn't have any evidence for her claims and won't know how to establish evidence. It is all folk medicine that has acquired a scientific veneer because her grandson was lettered and did try to make it work. He failed. Had her grandson not worked with the method and published about it, I suspect it would have disappeared.

[flerc]

If anyone's interested I have this book in pdf http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Scoliosis.../dp/1936303027, I still have to give it a go so I can't comment on it, I was looking for something to read in order to understand a bit more about things and to my surprise once I got this book I noticed it was written in collaboration with our dear friend MR. Fishman.. so if anyone's interested to know a bit more about Fishman's reasoning give me your email and I'll send it to you, pdf, 7MB, 273pages.
The Schroth book I temporarily gave up, too messy, too difficult, certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner, but one tip I read on the book benefited me, not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but since I stopped sleeping on my rib hump I feel less tired and more energetic in the morning, I'm the ever so skeptical but this tip I'm going to stick to until it works, or seems to be working.

Yes, sure Schroth and Iyengar Yoga are really great!

[Alistair]

If anyone's interested I have this book in pdf http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Scoliosis.../dp/1936303027, I still have to give it a go so I can't comment on it, I was looking for something to read in order to understand a bit more about things and to my surprise once I got this book I noticed it was written in collaboration with our dear friend MR. Fishman.. so if anyone's interested to know a bit more about Fishman's reasoning give me your email and I'll send it to you, pdf, 7MB, 273pages.
The Schroth book I temporarily gave up, too messy, too difficult, certainly impossible to understand what's good for my specific scoliosis without the help of a Schroth practitioner, but one tip I read on the book benefited me, not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but since I stopped sleeping on my rib hump I feel less tired and more energetic in the morning, I'm the ever so skeptical but this tip I'm going to stick to until it works, or seems to be working.

[flerc]

Edouard, is really great for me to know someone else really interested in the Side Plank.
After these few months, I think now that the before-after x rays value are right, and the study was done by honest people. But also that effectively it seems that the 120º curve was degenerative. I thought as something impossible really a giant curve arising after growth, but what the hell may I know. Anyway I think that some important IS curve should have been also reduced. I don't believe the curves values could have been something as 6º, 8º, 12º,....30º, 35º, 40º, 120º. Also I don't believe that all IS curves were mild and I hope that at least one was an adult case.
But anyway a fantastic reduction in degenerative giant curve suggest it could be also useful in IS. Certainly just only the existence of such curve imply that not everything is a matter of bones and discs. Fusion only modify those tissues, difficult (but not impossible) to be modified in a non surgical way. That, I think was an argument to think that non surgical treatments cannot reach a significative modification in the structure, but certainly it seems obvious that other tissues has to do, since is supposed that vertebras were not wedged and it cannot be imagined (at least I cannot) that a change only in discs may lead to such extreme curve. Other tissues need to be in a right state in order to keep an aligned spine. And in a degenerative case, improving those other tissues is almost enough at seems to be showed in this study. To see if it would be enough in IS we'd need to enter in other considerations, but it would be clear the power of soft tissues and that they may be altered significatively in a non surgical way.
And certainly I think is not clear if vertebras were nothing wedged.. It's a fact at least in adults rats that vertebras in a curve tail suffer a significant wedge.
So I think that even if it was the only one big adult curve, anyway Side Plank shoud to be useful in adult IS cases.

[edouard]

It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

Corrected thanks

[edouard]

It's Mr. Fishman, not fisherman :-)

Ask him and let us know, you can find his profile on FB.

I will but before that who his the representative of scoliosis.org ? i need to know if i can ask on behalf scoliosis.org that is better than me alone