Something positive about chiro...

[Pooka1]

I was listening to an audio file of an interview with Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch.

At one point he mentioned that there are plenty of honest chiropractors out there. It's the unscrupulous ones who make outrageous claims and promises that are the problem.

I suspect FixScoliosis, despite the screen name, is an honest type.

When I had my crushed disc, I was referred to an honest chiropractor who admitted all he could do is try to give me some exercises until the disc dissolved and the vertebra fused. He did do some adjustments but those really didn't help. How could they?... I had a crushed disc.

[titaniumed]

I knew that my surgery was inevitable way back in 1974, and with my skiing being a priority, I must say that I am very positive about Chiropractic.

My Chiropractors, Dr Martin Rutherford,and Dr Ketring, kept me going for 20 years, without surgery. A good Chiro with knowledge of scoliosis is essential, and I learned this through visits with approx 12 Chiros. They are not all the same, that's for sure. Chiropractic works well and is beneficial.

I do give credit to those who have tried to help us, in "any" way possible. If it wasn't for innovative thinkers, where would we be? Harrington rods used to be "gold standard'. remember?

The caveman who decided that the wheel should be round, probably wanted that extra dinosaur leg for a peek at his idea. Yes, greed drives economies folks and dinosaur tastes like chicken. LOL A little greed is good, too much is bad.

Fusing everyone upon diagnosis is not the answer. Its the "gold standard for now"

Having any disease will be costly, and people will try and pay for just about anything. These are all very individual decisions.
There is no easy answer and that's why this forum is here.

Never single out a group, because of a few bad apples. That's wrong.

Ed

[Pooka1]

Well, part of the problem is that they have had about 100 years to pony up something, anything, objective and the world is still waiting.

And it's not as simple as saying it's like how Lithium works empirically for manic depression for two reasons:

1. they claim they know the cause of the problem, "subluxations," but they can't get any two chiros to independently agree on where the subluxations are on a given radiograph apparently. Apparently, subluxation is a medical term but chiros aren't using it in that sense. Rather they are using it in a woo-woo sense which has not be corroborated in studies, controlled or otherwise.

2. People are helped by "chiro" but I don't know how they separate that out from massage or other manipulation which also helps.

Chirobase has some good articles explaining why chiropractic has gotten a bad name for itself and why, when the woo-woo claims are reeled in, they can help a certain fraction of patients.

[titaniumed]

Sharon

I didn't realize that "the world" was still waiting? I'm not. I'm waiting for other things you know. Stuff like a hottie knocking on my door looking for Fabio, but says "You must be Fabio's twin, are you single"? Waiting for a box of money to fall out of the sky. Waiting for a busload of nymphomaniac cheerleaders from Laughlin,Nevada to pull up in front of my house.Waiting for Christie Brinkley to pull up next to me on the freeway in a red Ferrari like in the Chevy Chase Vacation movie. Waiting to win a walking tour of Secaucus, New Jersey. Things like that, well maybe drop the last wish,courtesy of Alan Funt, Candid Camera.

This is my comedic answer. I'm in one of those moods again, anyone for Benny Hill tonight?

No?

Good, this thread is in the adult section. Will continue tomorrow.

Ed

[Pooka1]

Hey Ed, I have an open mind about chiro.

When my horse had serious orthopedic hoof problems which ping-ponged up to his back, the vet chiro did some voodoo and instantly removed the pain response. I'm saying instantly.

Now my horse is not as skeptical as maybe he should be but he was definitely fixed by the chiro, at least for a while. The same manipulation that produced a huge pain response prior to the treatment completely failed to elicit any pain response after treatment. I'm willing to pay for that no matter how unexplained it is.

But what is really going on there? It has to be along the lines of freeing an impinged nerve or otherwise blocking the pain response. If so, that is medicine, not chiro.

So it would seem the chiro types are trying to carve out a unique niche apart from medicine with spooky claims about subluxations. The problem is that there isn't a lick of evidence for anything besides medicine.

And Benny Hill is always in order as is a motion to adjoin.

[FixScoliosis]

the word "subluxation" is the problem

by saying this I hope I don't have to watch over my shoulders when meeting up with my colleagues

What is said here below, is my personal view only and is not a representation of other members in my profession. There are however some colleagues that share my opinions in this.

Sharon is right in her pointing out the problem around the term subluxation and it is the biggest problem within the profession. I have personally not used that term since I graduated, neither have I ever been in favor of subluxation based practices. The term, when used by chiropractors is too all encompassing, it allows them to explain everything with that term. It does not do it for me personally and I wish that the profession could get over itself on this.

The term has been debated over and over again within the profession and there seems never to be a complete agreement on its definition, I guess that sums up the problem.

However by stating the above, I do not believe that chiropractic is useless, I believe that it has many good things to offer in spinal health care, rehabilitation and corrective care, but these things cannot be obtained by purely adjusting/manipulating the spine.

Spinal manipulation has its benefits, but also its limits and the sooner we can all acknowledge that, we can all move on to find out what will work and what will not.

One more thought for the road. Whenever someone use the word: cure=a complete or permanent solution or remedy.
they better have strong evidence to support their claim

[titaniumed]

voodoo medicine?

Sharon

Using the word "voodoo" doesn't sound very convincing. LOL Anyway, it did work to some degree. Your horse loves you for it and it sure beats the alternative. I don't really know 'how unexplained" is is. More than likely, the Vet freed up a pinched nerve.
Call it any thing you want, subluxation or not, it was a simple solution. I would have liked to have seen how he did his adjustment, did he use a rubber mallet? I'm sure he didn't pull a pin out of his horse doll. LOL

I knew a girl who was in New Zealand hiking and she had some knee problems. She had a Doc down there who suggested doing ocean therapy. She mentioned to me that it really worked well and wondered why it worked ? I always knew that swimming horses in the ocean was standard therapy and I figured it was easy enough, so I tried it and it cured my crippling sciatica for about one year. I knew I had 4 herniations, wasn't quite ready for surgery yet, and guess what? It was free! The de-weighting and exercising gave time for the nucleus pulpous to retract and free up the impingement. It has something to do with the salts and minerals in the ocean water as I did not have the same success in a swimming pool. Once again, no proof of anything, but it worked. Maybe its proof that ocean salts etc permeate into the body? Careful what shampoo you use now! LOL

In looking at the definition of the word medicine, it includes substances, and manipulations, which would include "ocean therapy" and "chiropractic" also Osteopathy. Just a little note on defining what is medicine in relation to "Voodoo?" maybe its all voodoo?

med⋅i⋅cine   /ˈmɛdəsɪn or, especially Brit., ˈmɛdsən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [med-uh-sin or, especially Brit., med-suhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, -cined, -cin⋅ing.
–noun 1. any substance or substances used in treating disease or illness; medicament; remedy.
2. the art or science of restoring or preserving health or due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or appliances, or manipulations: often divided into medicine proper, surgery, and obstetrics



Its nice to have proof of something, but TONS of things just are not proven, that work. When looking for a solution, its usually the easiest,simplest solution that wins. If one can go to a Chiro to have back pain relieved fairly quickly, then its a viable solution. Its the most logical first step. Actually, eating should be the first step. Quite a few people will get headaches, and I will ask them if they ate, they usually say no. Duh!

I'm financing my God daughter through medical school and she gave me a "full tour" about 2 weeks ago. Only upon inspection of an actual spine sawed in half, do you realize how complex human anatomy is and how involved these surgeries are. It was amazing...... I'm still amazed and always will be. I'm also amazed at how much her tuition is. Its going to kill me, so I guess I really didn't need my scoliosis surgery after all.

There is no proof on tensile strength of BMP fusion. I wanted to know about the integrity of my fusions but it hasn't been done yet, not enough time has passed yet for a study. Just passed FDA in 2006.

There is no proof that any invasive surgery will have a positive outcome.

There is no proof that the space shuttle wont crash or our financial bailout will work.

Once again, you and I want proof of things however, sometimes we don't always get what we want. That's why I'm posting today, I needed a total break from an engineering nightmare that I cannot prove out. All I can do is analyze a given set of parameters and do the best I can.

We all know that bracing will not correct a curve and hold it on a permanent basis.I don't read any of the Spine core threads here but I support it. It beats hard bracing which is so hard to deal with, and provides a level of support and possibility of holding the curve stable. I don't know what proof they have on anything, but I feel its worth a try. I would have tried it if I was younger. There are more pros than cons to it.

We are all gamblers you know.

Ed

[Pooka1]

Sharon
Using the word "voodoo" doesn't sound very convincing. LOL

Hey, if it isn't a carrot or apple, it's voodoo to my horse.

If you could have seen how quick it was and how it completely stopped any pain response, you might be tempted to call it voodoo also. That is the word that popped into my brain when I saw the first treatment.

Anyway, it did work to some degree. Your horse loves you for it and it sure beats the alternative. I don't really know 'how unexplained" is is. More than likely, the Vet freed up a pinched nerve.

That is my working hypothesis.

Horses are all about movement. They need to move to digest their food and to otherwise stay healthy. Incorrect movement breaks them down. Correct movement builds them up. Once I got the correct diagnosis on his hoof issues, the corrective shoeing allowed him to move correctly for the first time in a long time. Though he was dependent on the chiro at first, he needed less and less chiro over this recovery period. Now that he is done with rehab and moving correctly all the time, he hasn't had any pain in his back for several months at least. The correct movement is doing what the chiro did at first. Somehow.

Maybe it is the same with people. Who knows.

Call it any thing you want, subluxation or not, it was a simple solution. I would have liked to have seen how he did his adjustment, did he use a rubber mallet? I'm sure he didn't pull a pin out of his horse doll. LOL

LOL! Good one, Ed.

No mallet, just standing on a stool (my horse is relatively large) and a quick pushing motion near the SI joint and towards it. My horse also developed a neck issue in this time period and the vet chiro did some quick motion and the muscles all became instantly supple. Suppleness is a prereq for riding so this was a key thing at that time. Now the correct riding itself can produce the suppleness and I don't have pain ping-ponging around my baby boy horse.

I knew a girl who was in New Zealand hiking and she had some knee problems. She had a Doc down there who suggested doing ocean therapy. She mentioned to me that it really worked well and wondered why it worked ? I always knew that swimming horses in the ocean was standard therapy and I figured it was easy enough, so I tried it and it cured my crippling sciatica for about one year. I knew I had 4 herniations, wasn't quite ready for surgery yet, and guess what? It was free! The de-weighting and exercising gave time for the nucleus pulpous to retract and free up the impingement. It has something to do with the salts and minerals in the ocean water as I did not have the same success in a swimming pool. Once again, no proof of anything, but it worked. Maybe its proof that ocean salts etc permeate into the body? Careful what shampoo you use now! LOL

I have thought this swimming business is very interesting ever since you mentioned you got significant relief after only 2 weeks of it.

They routinely swim horses in rehab because it is a way to get them moving without bearing weight on a lame leg. Horses need to move.

(snip definition of medicine)

Its nice to have proof of something, but TONS of things just are not proven, that work. When looking for a solution, its usually the easiest,simplest solution that wins. If one can go to a Chiro to have back pain relieved fairly quickly, then its a viable solution. Its the most logical first step. Actually, eating should be the first step. Quite a few people will get headaches, and I will ask them if they ate, they usually say no. Duh!

Yes but Ed, there are things that work empirically like Li for bipolar disorder and Ti for Ed (). Then there are things that we aren't sure work apart from placebo like homeopathy and prayer and chiro (apart from massage). This is an important distinction that is a real difference.

I'm financing my God daughter through medical school and she gave me a "full tour" about 2 weeks ago. Only upon inspection of an actual spine sawed in half, do you realize how complex human anatomy is and how involved these surgeries are. It was amazing...... I'm still amazed and always will be. I'm also amazed at how much her tuition is. Its going to kill me, so I guess I really didn't need my scoliosis surgery after all.

Damn you are a generous man, Ti Ed! That's a very good deed indeed.

(snip)

There is no proof that any invasive surgery will have a positive outcome.

Not a given one but in general, fusion is known in the aggregate and over large groups to have certain beneficial aspects. If it wasn't then no insurance company would pay for it.

There is no proof that the space shuttle wont crash or our financial bailout will work.

No but most shuttles do not crash and we figure out why they do when they do. The economic situation is intractable in terms of prediction in my uneducated opinion. We are flying blind.

(snip plaintive wail for proof in which I join you)

We are all gamblers you know.

Yes to varying extents. It's all we can do at times.

sharon

[titaniumed]

Its funny that I had the same thing happen to me. Not with a horse Vet, it was done by an Osteopath and without a carrot! LOL He grabbed my leg, and did a very large rotational move while laying on my side, and he popped my sacroiliac joints. This maneuver is only done by Osteos that I know of and it took decades of tension out of my low end. What a relief!!!

When you think about it, just about every living thing needs to move. Even trees need wind to agitate their roots! I'm trying to think of a living thing that doesn't move, even coral moves in the ocean at night. Now trees and coral don't need chiropractic help but we do. Our joints move every day. Just stepping off a curb wrong will throw ones back out. I had a ski crash years ago and had this pain that wouldn't quit and upon looking at the x-ray, one of my vert was out about 3/8" Granted I could have done nothing and maybe the misalignment would have straightened itself, but my Chiro adjusted it and it went back into normal position.It wasn't something that I would have run into surgery for.

I wonder if animals feel more pain than we do. If you stub your hoof, and put 500 lbs on it, it would seem like that would hurt like hell!
Good question for your Vet.

The ocean therapy happened while I was taking Bextra out in Hawaii. Each pill lasts 8 hours and you can only take 2 per day. One morning I didn't take one at my usual time of 7AM, and the sciatica pain came back big time. I took one and went back to bed until the effects would take hold, about 2 hrs.The next morning, I left at 6AM to go to the ocean without taking a pill and started swimming immediately. I was in for about 3 hours and didn't have any pain. I walked up on the beach to the towel, and had no pain but was worried that it would hit me at any time, so back into the ocean I went. I spent all day with a few towel trips and had no pain. I went back to the condo, walking on eggshells and it worked. I was so nervous that at any time the pain would come back that I just made it regular habit to swim in the ocean for 2 weeks. I took Celebrex and Bextra for 9 months and put on 30 lbs. NSAIDS are a godsend, I wouldn't have made it without them for sure. My ortho dxd me with 4 herniations in my Lumbar after a iohexol ct scan. The ocean therapy worked quickly.

There were no Tiger shark warnings for the 2 weeks I did this. One year later, I was at this beach, Hapuna beach on the Big Island and out of the blue a helicopter flew by and Roy Schieder runs down panicky yelling "Get out of the water" "NOW" and a couple of minutes later there are 500 people on the beach. It was surreal, like the movie "Jaws" DUM DUM, DUM DUM.

He He He
All of a sudden, my back is fixed and I had hundreds of girls in bikinis running at me. I felt like Dudly Moore in "10"
Ed

[Pooka1]

(snip)
My ortho dxd me with 4 herniations in my Lumbar after a iohexol ct scan. The ocean therapy worked quickly.

This is a sports injury, yes?

So taking weight off (essentially) cured your herniated discs?

That makes some sense. Time cured my crushed (maybe herniated is the correct term) disc. Taking weight off may have significantly decreased that time. This was a sports injury (incorrect riding technique). I now have a natural fusion and no pain. It's been ~17 years. Unfortunately, I think that fusion is, of late, trying to propagate to other levels in my lumbar. We'll see.

There were no Tiger shark warnings for the 2 weeks I did this. One year later, I was at this beach, Hapuna beach on the Big Island and out of the blue a helicopter flew by and Roy Scheider runs down panicky yelling "Get out of the water" "NOW" and a couple of minutes later there are 500 people on the beach. It was surreal, like the movie "Jaws" DUM DUM, DUM DUM.

He He He
All of a sudden, my back is fixed and I had hundreds of girls in bikinis running at me. I felt like Dudley Moore in "10"
Ed

Watch a lot of movies, Ti Ed?

We were on Maui a few years ago at which time a fatal shark attack occurred after 12 years of no fatalities. We weren't at that beach at that time but I'm just saying.

And in the throw-away advice column...

Ed, always remember that you can be a chick magnet if you choose to be.

[titaniumed]

sciatica

Sports injury? That's hard to define. If you mean a very hard impact, the answer is no.

The outside of a disc, annulus fibrosus is like a car tire. It eventually after 40,000 miles LOL breaks down and the problems start.
The inside of the disc, nucleus pulposus is like crab meat. It will push out and hit "stuff" and cause pain.

Releasing the compression on the disc and hoping that the crab meat pulls back in is the goal. Its not easy. The ocean therapy worked for me, and also a computerized traction machine worked for me that my Chiropractors have. The manufacturer of the equipment doesn't recommend it for scoliosis, but I really didn't have much to lose with "10" level pain. you strap on your flight suit which holds your hips, and hold with your arms and it runs a program with non-linear "pulls" with a programmed dwell at the peak of the pull. It hurt like hell for 8 days till my back was absolutely raw, then we stopped using the machine and the next day my sciatica was completely gone. This was used with adjustments, ultrasound, and massage. Massage is a good thing for scoliosis, I found that it was helpful to hop into a hot tub before my massage.

So, 2 weeks of sciatica beats the 9 months I suffered with in 2002. It was expensive, but worth every penny.

Obviously, I was not "ready' for my surgery just yet. It was after struggling with multiple pain "events" for 7 years and less success with all the methods I used that I made my decision.

Decision making for major surgery is the most difficult decision one can make in their lifetime. Hands down !!! There are also many factors involved that influence ones decision that have to do with personal and business outcomes. I sold my business, a precision manufacturing company in preparation for my surgery. That took some time................

Do I watch a lot of movies? Not really, only the good ones. I've always had problems sitting in the theaters. One time I was late on a rental about 20 years ago and they wanted all sorts of money for nothing and that's when I decided to end that situation. Dudley Moore was good, and I remember some of his movies. Such a shame what happened to him with his palsy. They thought he was drunk all the time.

I have no problems with chicks, its the magnet part I have problems with. They all want to move in, especially after they see my place. I spent 1 year with a decorator and contractors doing mods. 14 different colors of paint, and very eclectic you might say.
Ed

[asccbodypro]

I have to put my 2 cents in here. Just as many have gotten first, second and third opinions for surgery, the same consideration should be given when looking for a chiropractor. My Chiropractor saved my life this past year. When I had my son I could barely walk into the Dr's office. After ex-rays, he was very honest about how he could help me. He couldn't fix my curve, he hoped to slow the progression down (but couldn't promise) and he said he could definitely help with the pain. Simple as that. Almost a year later I am doing cardio again and lifting weights to some degree. Not weight training like I did when I competed in bodybuilding, but some. We do heat therapy, adjustments, cardio, weight training, ice and muscle stim and stretching. Most days I have to be adjusted 2 or 3 times before I leave but I always leave feeling better than when I went in. He made it possible to wait at least until the baby was a year old before having surgery. There has been no progression of the curve and he has eliminated most of the nerve pain I was feeling. I do however still have a lot of muscle spasms and if I don't go at least 3 times a week I am in trouble. It's not a quick fix but it can help if you want to hold surgery off for a little while.

[titaniumed]

Chiropractors also adjust hands and feet. I had a friend who had a foot problem who had an adjustment, and he couldn't believe it. He was in pain for a few years, and his foot was fixed in 1 second for $50.

Just to let you guys know, I was laying under my RV today changing my oil. I never thought that I would ever be able to do something like that ever again. I'm back stronger than ever. In fact I have to say that I'm better than 100%, Maybe 110% , I need to let more time pass for a higher rating. LOL Zero pain. I am ready for my superman suit! don't ask me what I'm going to do after I put it on, but I'm ready. Probably get arrested.

After 22 years of heavy chiropractic, I kind of miss it. I just don't need it any more.Same with massage. My masseuse calls me for work, and I feel sorry for her, but I don't need it. I was a good customer for many years with pricy 90 minute massages.

Another thing that is interesting is the relief that I would get from water immersion pre surgery, isn't the same anymore after surgery. That old feeling of zero gravity, the release of weight and pressure on the joints in my back, just doesn't feel the same. I feel no benefit from water immersion in my fused area.

I wish everyone a successful fusion, I never expected such fantastic results.

Nothing can go wrong anymore. I actually hit the house with the rv today. I laughed.
Ed

[debbei]

Chiropractors also adjust hands and feet. I had a friend who had a foot problem who had an adjustment, and he couldn't believe it. He was in pain for a few years, and his foot was fixed in 1 second for $50.

Just to let you guys know, I was laying under my RV today changing my oil. I never thought that I would ever be able to do something like that ever again. I'm back stronger than ever. In fact I have to say that I'm better than 100%, Maybe 110% , I need to let more time pass for a higher rating. LOL Zero pain. I am ready for my superman suit! don't ask me what I'm going to do after I put it on, but I'm ready. Probably get arrested.

After 22 years of heavy chiropractic, I kind of miss it. I just don't need it any more.Same with massage. My masseuse calls me for work, and I feel sorry for her, but I don't need it. I was a good customer for many years with pricy 90 minute massages.

Another thing that is interesting is the relief that I would get from water immersion pre surgery, isn't the same anymore after surgery. That old feeling of zero gravity, the release of weight and pressure on the joints in my back, just doesn't feel the same. I feel no benefit from water immersion in my fused area.

I wish everyone a successful fusion, I never expected such fantastic results.

Nothing can go wrong anymore. I actually hit the house with the rv today. I laughed.
Ed

I'm so happy for you Ed. Good for you that you turned out so "Superman"!! Do you still use your hottub?

I'm looking forward to feeling better and better too. I think I'm doing very well, but I know that I tire easily now. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not used to all the activity like I used to, or because of the surgery. Probably a little of both.

[txmarinemom]

I still love my massages, Ed. The same guy that did pre-op deep tissue and myofascial release still works on me (I'm scheduled Thursday evening for 2 hours ;-). We joke "I need a massage before my massage!".

There are only so many ways you can self-stretch your subscapular area and chest wall (your arms only bend forward and backwards so far, and mine both wrap around me AND I can clasp my hands together and bring them up and behind me ... they're maxed out). When my shoulder blades get tight, ONLY myofascial work will get them floating again. Same way with the piriformis: Yes, a foam roller will work to some degree for self release, but I love having someone with a clue (and, yes, of course he's seen my x-rays) work the glutes, hamstrings and my lumbar area. The less tension I carry there, the less tension there is around the fusion area.

He even uses his forearms right alongside the fusion to work the erectors. And not gingerly. It feels soooooooooo good.

I think it will be a lifetime monthly, if not a fortnightly, indulgence.

There are worse things (i.e., I'd prefer to send my head out for haircuts ... deliver back when finished). Not this.

Regards,
Pam