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  • curve decreasing on its own?

    Leah's (13 ) curve seems to have reduced by 10 * which is something, even taking +/- 5 into consideration...her previous exray was checked by the orthopedic surgeon and verified 45* thoracic, 40* lumbar and now it is 35* and 30*; no bracing, nothing.Have other people experienced this? A curve of this magnitude going away on its own?
    We see the specialist in Jan.
    Carol
    BC Canada

  • #2

    Leah and I got out the protractor and measured the curve delineated by the radiology tech and signed off by the radiologist. 35* was actually 42-43, and 30* was 35*!!!!! We will get the specialist to measure it as well, but I have never been so emotional about this situation as I was tonight for some reason. How could those people be so cavalier and careless with my daughter's situation? that is a 20% error!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or has this person not learned how to use a protractor properly? Or maybe he or she had read 100 that day and was starting to get blurry vision...Yikes.
    So no change. Leah of course had thought maybe the curve was going to go away on its own.
    Had to vent
    Carol
    Chilliwack BC
    Canada

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    • #3
      Since we just found out my son has scoliosis I don't have a lot to offer. But I can tell you that the xray tech measured Jared's curve to be 15-18 degrees and the ortho said it was more like 25. I guess it all depends on who is measuring.

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      • #4
        Hi there!
        How is Jared feeling? I am much calmer now. I don't know why I got so upset; I know the orthopedic surgeon double checks the numbers. And how did you notice the scoliosis?
        Carol

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        • #5
          Carol - Are you sure that the curve angles were measured for the same range of vertebrae? When you see near-term differences in successive measurements of Cobb angles of 10 degrees or more, it's often due to an x-ray tech or orthopedist measuring a different range. For example, he or she might first consider the structural curve to be in the range of T3 to L1, and in the second measurement consider it to be T4 to L2. The doctor needs to be sure he or she is making an "apples-to-apples" comparison. It is also possible that someone just screwed up using the protractor. Either way, you should definitely bring this to the attention of your orthopedist.

          Dave

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          • #6
            I agree with Dave - there is such a variable in reading a curvature. In order to get the same measurement, you have to have the very same apex, very same number of vertebrae included in the measurement, very same everything otherwise the measurement is going to be different with each reading.

            Another thing to remember is that most people's spines are flexible - not permanently fixed in one place. The measurements could change depending on the time of day and the stability of the spine (albeit minimal reading changes). Flexible spines are good - that means there is better overall balance and other good things. Rigid spines are not as good.

            My son, Braydon, was born with congenital scoliosis. His xray at birth gave various readings - a computer generated measurement documented his curve to be 65 degrees. The radiologist's measurement was 50 degrees. The orthopedist, who has seen him since and has done all other measurements, measured it to be 45 degrees. We've used the orthos measurement for long term documentation purposes.

            I guess my point here is that scoliosis measurements (Cobb readings) are not an exact science. I would definitely make the ortho aware of your findings and comments, but I don't think this is something to be overly alarmed by, but then again, I'm only a parent and not a medical professional. Please keep us posted on what you find out.
            Carmell
            mom to Kara, idiopathic scoliosis, Blake 19, GERD and Braydon 14, VACTERL, GERD, DGE, VEPTR #137, thoracic insufficiency, rib anomalies, congenital scoliosis, missing coccyx, fatty filum/TC, anal stenosis, horseshoe kidney, dbl ureter in left kidney, ureterocele, kidney reflux, neurogenic bladder, bilateral hip dysplasia, right leg/foot dyplasia, tibial torsion, clubfoot with 8 toes, pes cavus, single umblilical artery, etc. http://carmellb-ivil.tripod.com/myfamily/

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            • #7
              Jared is just fine. He is more rambuncious then my older one is. I found his scoliosis just by running my hands up and down his spine. that and he stands a little crooked. I was very upset after I found out about the scoliosis even more upset when I found out that he has an enlarged kidney, so I know how you feel,!

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              • #8
                I hope that enlarged kidney is not causing problems? That would certainly be a more serious problem than scoliosis?

                Thanks for all your replies; this has been such a learning experience. Dave, I believe that the same vertebra were measured, although I can see how that would make a difference. The specialist today agreed with my measurements, but wasn't too worried about the discrepancy.
                We had an interesting day today.
                Our Canadian specialist emailed me a response, indicating that they do not do any surgery unless curve is 55 + (usually) because under that, odds are 50/50 that surgery will look after the problem, and many people have normal lives with curves 45-50 *
                The problem is that in 4 short months my PE loving 13 year old is unable to do a 10th of her usual activity, because of pain.
                I pointed this out to a different specialist and he also suggested waiting to see if surgery is indicated,(he is from Seattle, but knows and respects the Canadian Dr and is urging me to seek treatment in Canada) but is requesting a bone scan because that much pain is unusual; so that is our next step. He measured all the curves but felt that he would like a third set of xrays done as these ones were too short to really tell anything.
                I just feel that I can't sit and do nothing while her quality of life is whittled away. She already doesn't have a normal life.
                So if they won't do a bone scan here, I will travel to Seattle again to have it done. (That's a 12 hour trip) I know that once I have a plan of action we will all feel much better.
                Take care everyone
                Carol Chilliwack Bc Canada

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                • #9
                  Hi Carol,

                  You are right to be concerned about the pain your daughter is having. That isn't typical of a scoliosis with her measurements. Discomfort, maybe, but not the pain that restricts daily activity.

                  Has your daughter had a spine MRI? This is different than a bone scan. I would rule out any nerve related problem that would be contributing or causing the pain she's having. Maybe you could call and speak with a neurosurgeon and tell them about her scoliosis and daily pain.

                  Good luck and keep us posted.
                  Carmell
                  mom to Kara, idiopathic scoliosis, Blake 19, GERD and Braydon 14, VACTERL, GERD, DGE, VEPTR #137, thoracic insufficiency, rib anomalies, congenital scoliosis, missing coccyx, fatty filum/TC, anal stenosis, horseshoe kidney, dbl ureter in left kidney, ureterocele, kidney reflux, neurogenic bladder, bilateral hip dysplasia, right leg/foot dyplasia, tibial torsion, clubfoot with 8 toes, pes cavus, single umblilical artery, etc. http://carmellb-ivil.tripod.com/myfamily/

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                  • #10
                    thanks Carmell;
                    She had a spine MRI and everything shows normal there -- so will see if we can get a bone scan here; otherwise I will go back to Seattle to have it done. That way alot of ground work will have been done before I see Dr. Tredwell. I gather that once we get in to see him, he will be ordering his own battery of tests and xrays done to his specs.
                    Carol

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                    • #11
                      You also have to understnad that there is a 5 degree error in every reading and it will be there no matter how many times you read it........ i do hope that your daughters curve is decreasing
                      *~*cArLy*~*

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                      • #12
                        Hi Carly;
                        Our GP explained that orthopedic specialists have a whole different criteria when measuring curves as opposed to the radiologist who may or may not be experienced in certain types of films -- this is especially true of someone reading MRI -- so certain specialists are extremely picky about who is doing what imaging. I just heard from Dr Tredwell in YVR Children's and he asked me to hold off on any more imaging until he could see Leah, as he would be ordering a whole battery of tests and wanted it all done at the same place. so I am holding tough until then. I am very curious as to why Dr. Tredwell doesn't go to surgery for a curve that stabilizes in the 45-50 * range,(although he admits that at that point it is useless to brace) and very often not until a curve hits 55+, and a surgeon elsewhere recommends surgery at 45*...I wonder if the difference may lie in the lack of available beds up here, or a different philisophy of treatment?
                        Carol

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                        • #13
                          Scoliosis

                          Hi, I was reading your first few letters. A few months ago I wondered the same thing. Why can't these people measure right? Well, with me I went in after my doctor told me I had it. I went back to the doctor and she said it was very very minor like 18 degrees. So we didn't think about it till my back started to hurt a few weeks later. So my doctor sent me to an ortho, And I got my x-rays done again, and this time it said 30!!!! I was so mad. That was such a difference from 18. Well, I guess that explains it all.

                          Talk to you later!


                          ***ASHLEY***

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                          • #14
                            measuring curves

                            You know what seemed really crazy; Leah's curve looked very minor, but when we finally went for xrays, it was 45*! Even the doctor was floored. But curves can be spiralled and you don't necessarily notice them right away even though they can be fairly severe. so I guess the best thing is to ask for an xray no matter what.
                            The specialist in at Children's here mentioned that surgery has only a 50% chance of dealing with Leah's pain, and that it would make her less flexible. At 50*+, however she will start losing flexiblity, and her health will become more compromised. And even though the chances of complication and infection are fairly low, the dr. says it does happen; he would prefer not to do surgery unless absolutely necessary. I guess he has been in the business awhile, and although there have been lots of successful surgeries, he says the "failures" can be drastic, and then you would be asking yourself, "was surgery absolutely necessary in this case?" So he was incredibly honest. And he is held in the highest esteem in BC and in Washington State.
                            So I hope with your 30* curve you are able to do something to keep it down; maybe with bracing, and reduce discomfort.
                            Carol

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                            • #15
                              Dr. Tredwell

                              Hi Carol,

                              what a coincidence! Our 16-year old daughter Leah is also under the care of Dr. Tredwell.
                              I have been reading your postings and feel for your daughter Leah. Interestingly, our Leah (who is 16 today!) is in no pain although her curvature is at 58 degrees. (It had changed from 52 degrees last June to 58 in December.) She is scheduled for surgery on June 16th.
                              I was glad to hear from you that you consider Dr. Tredwell's approach cautious. So many people tell me to consider alternatives to surgery. My gut feeling is that our Leah will be best off with surgery. I would hate to see her condition deteriorate at this pace while trying out alternatives.
                              We have our counselling session with Dr. Tredwell on May 17.

                              I'll be happy to compare notes! In the meantime our Leah is finishing off her wrestling and skiing season. She has never felt any pain.

                              Keep us posted on your daughter's well being.

                              Bea
                              Burnaby, B.C.
                              Bea
                              Burnaby BC

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