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Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

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  • Huddger, fortunately you are here!!!! I was thinking that if a group talking about a scientific aproach are saying about achievements with adults but that they only may achieve a real change in the posture (walking, sitting down.. standing up.. even to taken an xray) that has noting to do with the curve.. what we may expect from others!!..
    Really I was thinking that would be a waste of time to talk with them.. but then I have read what you said.
    Thanks!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by hdugger
      Adding one more thing

      My definition of cosmetic is quite different - it is a change in the appearance of a curve without affecting the standing-out-of-brace Cobb angle. My son has had a huge amount of cosmetic reshaping with exercise - his head is further back, his shoulders are even - without touching the base curve.

      Even this purely cosmetic work has had a huge impact. He looks better (cosmetics matter!) and his pain level is 0.
      Great! Really good news

      Comment


      • Originally posted by hdugger
        Their research speaks for itself, and speaks far more clearly then a poster interpreting a discussion with them (which allows all kinds of misinterpretations and errors to creep in).
        Without any doubt.. I'll write them when I can.

        Originally posted by hdugger
        Here's a question I've been considering for awhile. What's the relationship between the "flexibility" of a curve and the bony structure of a curve? Are they the same thing? So, if you put someone in a brace and take an xray of them lying down, and compare that to a bending curve xray, is that the same number?
        I don't imagine how may be the same number.
        Flexibility for me is the curve adopted by the spine without anything pulling down it as gravity force, so it may be mesured as the cocient (Ds-Dl)/Ds where D = degrees beeing stand up an Dl = degrees beeing lying down. For instance someone with 50ş has a flexibility of the 50% if lying down the curve is 25ş.

        I'm thinking now that another concept of flexibility may be taken into account. Perhaps with not so much force beeing lying down the curve may be reduced from 25ş to 0ş.. it also should to be considered..

        Originally posted by hdugger
        That would lead to the question - does fusion surgery reduce the bony structure of the curve? Or is that the inflexible part of the curve, and fusion surgery only reduces the muscle/ligaments elements by making it impossible for ligaments and muscles to pull the bony part of the curve?
        mmm.. I think I'm not following you with this.. I think (or imagine) that surgery is based on the principle saying that the spine may remains straight by herself, that is, muscles, ligaments, tendons, joints.. only help to hold the aligment of the stack, so if vertebras are aligned and fixed (reducing of curse the curve) in a permanent, then the spine may remains straight by herself.. so muscles, ligaments.. are unnecessary.. Surely you was asking something else

        Comment


        • Originally posted by flerc View Post
          It's enough clear to all in this thread that this is your belief, since you believe in the most absolutely impossibility of a curve reduction in an adult. I don't believe that SEAS researchers use braces only for cosmetical issues.. they told you that?
          You want me to repeat it again? Yes, I was told by one of her practitioners on a visit at their centre in Milan last 24th October, she was incredibly frank, very rare for a Doctor I thought, she said everyone claiming to be able to redress a structural curve in adults is telling you a "bufala", it's a VERY strong slang Italian term, look it up. She told me they do use braces at ISICO on adult-ish patients (around 25 years old or so) but even at those somehow young ages it's nearly impossible to redress a curve which has been there for all their lives just with excercises or a brace, and if you think about it, it does make sense. I'm my case, 38yo, no hope was given to me. Everyone can trust whoever they like, I can lead a horse to water.....
          I'm not sure I can write publicly her email address but I can give it to you via PM. She's Italian (and, as a single man, very cute if I may say so) but I'm sure she can rustle up a reply in English if you can't write in Italian.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
            You want me to repeat it again? Yes, I was told by one of her practitioners on a visit at their centre in Milan last 24th October, she was incredibly frank, very rare for a Doctor I thought, she said everyone claiming to be able to redress a structural curve in adults is telling you a "bufala", it's a VERY strong slang Italian term, look it up. She told me they do use braces at ISICO on adult-ish patients (around 25 years old or so) but even at those somehow young ages it's nearly impossible to redress a curve which has been there for all their lives just with excercises or a brace, and if you think about it, it does make sense. I'm my case, 38yo, no hope was given to me. Everyone can trust whoever they like, I can lead a horse to water.....
            I'm not sure I can write publicly her email address but I can give it to you via PM. She's Italian (and, as a single man, very cute if I may say so) but I'm sure she can rustle up a reply in English if you can't write in Italian.
            Flerc speaks Spanish. If the beautiful doctor speaks Spanish then Flerc can understand and move on hopefully.

            I have never seen a reputable person claim a permanent change to a structural curve in an adult through any means except surgery. FULL STOP.

            I think the problem is Flerc reads A LOT of the alternative treatment literature. These are lay people who are liable to say anything apparently. I think that is why he might not be clear on this point. If folks would stick to talking with only trained people (surgeons and other medical doctors and certain PT types) then this confusion wouldn't arise in the first place. ISICO are trained doctors which is why they admitted they can't change an adult structural curve and that any decrease is PT-dependent.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              Flerc speaks Spanish. If the beautiful doctor speaks Spanish then Flerc can understand and move on hopefully.

              I have never seen a reputable person claim a permanent change to a structural curve in an adult through any means except surgery. FULL STOP.

              I think the problem is Flerc reads A LOT of the alternative treatment literature. These are lay people who are liable to say anything apparently. I think that is why he might not be clear on this point. If folks would stick to talking with only trained people (surgeons and other medical doctors and certain PT types) then this confusion wouldn't arise in the first place. ISICO are trained doctors which is why they admitted they can't change an adult structural curve and that any decrease is PT-dependent.
              Maybe I'm confused again about SEAS.. I remember a famous case in an adult, but what Alistair is saying is not according with that.. or yes?.. anyway my confusion about SEAS has nothing to do with what you are saying of course.
              Instead of talking about a 'problem' you should to consider the different kinds of mentalities. Probably because the kind of University or work or other circumstance (or genes?) same people instead of beeing sure about what other people say, are most inclined to only trust in their own deductions conclusions or reasonings. Other people instead, believe blindly in what the 'authority' says.. is the true for them.. samething like the divine word.
              Surely people formed in exact sciences are the extreme of 'not trust blindly'
              If I would be in a wheel chair because a cut in the medula and looking for a non surgical method for walk again, the explanation about nervous function would be enough for me to understand why they say that is something IMPOSSIBLE, because is based over some claims that nobody doubt are facts and the reasoning and conclusion is absolutely logic, we may see it as a demonstration.
              When I heard about scoliosis, I asked why is impossible to reverse it when growth is finished.. and I'm continious asking for a rational explanation to all people saying that and nobody give it. Ask to that trained people and then explain us.
              Maybe SEAS people may explain it, if it's really a fact and they understand it, I don't know yet.
              I have talked with trained people such as you defined and I never obtained the rational demonstration about that IMPOSSIBILITY. I also talked with really wise proffessionals of different disciplines and I'm sure that what is happening with scoliosis is exactly like the parabola of the blind men and the elephant.

              Maybe that 'your problem' is to believe so much in 'authorities'.. the divine word and not in what you may analyze and conclude by yourself.
              Last edited by flerc; 12-19-2011, 09:22 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                You want me to repeat it again? Yes, I was told by one of her practitioners on a visit at their centre in Milan last 24th October, she was incredibly frank, very rare for a Doctor I thought, she said everyone claiming to be able to redress a structural curve in adults is telling you a "bufala", it's a VERY strong slang Italian term, look it up. She told me they do use braces at ISICO on adult-ish patients (around 25 years old or so) but even at those somehow young ages it's nearly impossible to redress a curve which has been there for all their lives just with excercises or a brace, and if you think about it, it does make sense. I'm my case, 38yo, no hope was given to me. Everyone can trust whoever they like, I can lead a horse to water.....
                I'm not sure I can write publicly her email address but I can give it to you via PM. She's Italian (and, as a single man, very cute if I may say so) but I'm sure she can rustle up a reply in English if you can't write in Italian.
                It takes much sense to me to talk about an imposibility to reduce to 0ş. Also that a significant reduction in an adult would not be something so simple to do and that a really great knowledge to reach a method talking into acount many different principles is needed. Give me please the adress by MP.
                Thanks.

                Comment


                • Hi Flerc,

                  I just sent you via PM her email address. When I first wrote to the beautiful Doctor (^_^) some ambiguous terminology led me to believe, or better hope, that with excercises something could be achieved in terms of reducing the curvature, but face to face I was very blunt with my questions and she was even more honest with her replies, so if in any way her written reply will give you some hope, please take what Pooka1 said as a point of reference:

                  I have never seen a reputable person claim a permanent change to a structural curve in an adult through any means except surgery. FULL STOP.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                    Maybe that 'your problem' is to believe so much in 'authorities'.. the divine word and not in what you may analyze and conclude by yourself.
                    The facts are my only authority. Evidence is the only thing that matters. Because both the professionals and I are following the same facts and looking at the same evidence, we all come to the same conclusion. That probably looks like I am following authorities to others.

                    Beyond facts and evidence, I defer completely to the opinions of those in the field. Their field. And they would defer completely to my opinion in my field. That how rationality works. That is why a random surgeon "fighting" with the research cosmologists at JPL/NASA is so unseemly. Professionals in one field do not poach in the field of other professionals and certainly not in such a comical way if they want to be taken seriously. I saw mention of a poll where it was determined that people with a PhD in a field were the LEAST likely to make declarative statements in another field. The less training folks had the more likely they were to make declarative statements. This result could have been predicted from a mile out. The reason is the folks know what effort it took to master one tiny part of one field (their PhD area) and they know damn well they didn't put that effort in the other area.

                    Facts and evidence are what matters, not authorities. As always. In everything,. Etc., etc., etc..
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                      Hi Flerc,

                      I just sent you via PM her email address. When I first wrote to the beautiful Doctor (^_^) some ambiguous terminology led me to believe, or better hope, that with excercises something could be achieved in terms of reducing the curvature, but face to face I was very blunt with my questions and she was even more honest with her replies, so if in any way her written reply will give you some hope, please take what Pooka1 said as a point of reference:
                      Thanks, Alistair, and these would not imply any risk for me. As I said to her, I would not believe that something is as someone say, only because say that.. If the explanation is not enough reasonable for me, I’ll forget it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hdugger
                        Sorry, my writing was very unclear
                        Sure you are so clear.. sorry If I'm not understanding

                        Originally posted by hdugger
                        The ISICO folk talk about the contribution of three systems to the ultimate Cobb angle - the bony part, the ligament part, and the muscle part. I *believe* their exercises only address the muscular part (that is, I don't think they believe they can change the ligament part, and I'm certain they don't think they can change the bony part).
                        I think they should. It seems to be a fact (when will come the day we may see a record of them??) that ligaments may be stretched and strengthened.
                        I don't know enough about bones to be so sure if cannot be modified after growth in a non surgical way the same way that they may be modified before it.
                        Originally posted by hdugger
                        I'd always thought of fusion surgery as ultimately addressing all three, and actually changing the bone/structural part of the curve. But, thinking more, I don't believe that's so. If that *were* true, doctors wouldn't talk about flexible and inflexible curves, since bone is equally inflexible in everyone.

                        What I *think* fusion surgery addresses is *only* the ligament/muscle part of the curve. So exercise addresses muscles, surgery addresses muscles plus ligaments, and nooone addresses the bony/structural part.
                        I don't believe they change vertebras or ribs, but they replaces the discs by bone (not?), so in some way they are changing the bony structural part.

                        Originally posted by hdugger
                        In an unfused spine, the ligaments and muscles can pull the spine into a large Cobb angle. By making the spine as straight as it can be (i.e., getting down to the structural part of the curve) and then fusing it into an inflexible structure, the ligaments and muscles can no longer act on the spine.
                        Also not gravity force.

                        Originally posted by hdugger
                        Thus, getting fused would offer exactly the same correction as lying down in brace.

                        Originally posted by hdugger
                        This doesn't address surgeries where they actually reshape the vertebrae - only ones where they pull the spine as straight as they can and then stiffen it in that corrected state.

                        Am I missing something? Is fusion surgery actually changing the fixed, bony structure? Or is it just keeping the spine from bending against the force of the ligaments and muscles?
                        Surely I'm not understanding. In someone with a 40% flexible spine, only gravity force would be doing the work of bending the spine these 40%, otherwise beeing lying down, would not to decrease the curve, so something is failing in the body and not doing the work of maintaining the spine.
                        I understand that something is not allowing the spine to reach a 100% being lying down (they say that is because muscles and ligaments??) so some tissues are the guilty of the remainder 60%.
                        When vertebras are fixed in an straight position, that failure tissues are not necessary any more. I think that what surgery does is not only stretching the spine as lying down (40%) but also stretching some of the 60% remainder.

                        So 2 problems are avoided, the failure of the ‘weak’ failure tissues not doing their work of maintaining the spine straight, and the ‘strong’ tissues not allowing a 100% of flexibility.

                        I'm not sure if it has something to do with your doubt, surely many members here knows enough about surgery.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          The facts are my only authority. Evidence is the only thing that matters.
                          ..
                          Without considering of course sciences and knowledge areas as Mathematics, Facts and reasoning are the only authority to get conclusions. Facts without reasoning are so useless as a car without combustible. If evidence would be the only thing that matters, we would continue living in caverns.

                          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          Beyond facts and evidence, I defer completely to the opinions of those in the field. Their field. And they would defer completely to my opinion in my field. That how rationality works.
                          We would may agree if the experts in the field has an extreme knowledge as we may say that occurs in some others fields, so any problem belonging to that field, would not admit any discussion. Do you really believe that this may be said about scoliosis field???? Then, this is your problem, you believe that experts in this field has a great knowledge about it, so you is reasonable for you to believe in what they say.

                          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          Because both the professionals and I are following the same facts and looking at the same evidence, we all come to the same conclusion.
                          Surely the 'fact' you are looking for is that only what 'experts' says may works and of course they have so much 'evidence' of that. And as they have an 'extreme knowledge in these field', you are absolutely sure that is true.
                          You should to test your assumptions and of course be careful about the conclusions based over that belief.

                          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          That is why a random surgeon "fighting" with the research cosmologists at JPL/NASA is so unseemly. Professionals in one field do not poach in the field of other professionals and certainly not in such a comical way if they want to be taken seriously. I saw mention of a poll where it was determined that people with a PhD in a field were the LEAST likely to make declarative statements in another field. The less training folks had the more likely they were to make declarative statements. This result could have been predicted from a mile out. The reason is the folks know what effort it took to master one tiny part of one field (their PhD area) and they know damn well they didn't put that effort in the other area.
                          You should to say that here http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ncluding-MAGEC

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                            I didn't write that article. I cited it.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
                              Re. the above emphasis, irrational beliefs suggest the ongoing mental bracing trial on humankind is failing. :-)
                              Ha ha. Yes, those bracing trials are pretty tricky things.

                              You call them "irrational" beliefs. They are only irrational in the sense that scientists would claim to know how everything in the universe works. And quite obviously they don't.

                              (Seek and ye shall find).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                                The facts are my only authority. Evidence is the only thing that matters. Because both the professionals and I are following the same facts and looking at the same evidence, we all come to the same conclusion. That probably looks like I am following authorities to others.

                                Beyond facts and evidence, I defer completely to the opinions of those in the field. Their field. And they would defer completely to my opinion in my field. That how rationality works. That is why a random surgeon "fighting" with the research cosmologists at JPL/NASA is so unseemly. Professionals in one field do not poach in the field of other professionals and certainly not in such a comical way if they want to be taken seriously. I saw mention of a poll where it was determined that people with a PhD in a field were the LEAST likely to make declarative statements in another field. The less training folks had the more likely they were to make declarative statements. This result could have been predicted from a mile out. The reason is the folks know what effort it took to master one tiny part of one field (their PhD area) and they know damn well they didn't put that effort in the other area.

                                Facts and evidence are what matters, not authorities. As always. In everything,. Etc., etc., etc..
                                In fact, there are many orthopedic researchers out there who don't agree with you (I'm not talking about adult bracing). And in all the other scientific fields also. It certainly suits agenda-driven science to not have anyone look over your shoulder and contest your findings.....makes things so much easier when you can get the science "settled" just by having comrades agree with you.

                                Scientists should be skeptical by nature and welcome critical critiques in order to get to the truth of the matter, whether the critique comes from that field or not. Lots of fields hold valuable information and techniques to get at the truth.
                                Last edited by Ballet Mom; 12-20-2011, 08:35 PM.

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