Can Chiropractic care cause scoliosis to get worse?

[dailystrength]

Thanks - second that

Thanks, Michael, for your comments on things that people put out there. We have enough to deal with without having to feel we will be put in a defensive position for doing what we think is best. This is not a war between surgical and non-surgical; we are all searching for answers. For those of us willing to step out and try a newer method for the sake of all of us, I think that is very commendable. So, thank you for your support and wisdom. I think it is fine to give alternative concerns and thoughts, but not to the point of challenging someone's choice, which they are struggling with also. We all are struggling. Life is a daily job to remain optimistic for many of us.

Thanks also for your reply to the other thread- not sure where that is now, but I really appreciated it and so did my mother, my best supporter.

--Christina

[mamamax]

The fact that you had pain relief in brace when you first got it is proof the brace is holding your curve up. And as with all braces, it is restricting movement and taking over what your muscles used to do. So when you come out of it, your muscles will be less able to support your spine, incredible claims from the inventors about how the brace is actually not a brace aside.

I kind of missed this statement in the course of conversation and feel the need to clarify the facts.

Yes I had immediate pain reduction - which continues to this day (even when out of brace)

The design of this brace does not restrict movement and take over what my muscles used to do - nor when I come out of brace are my muscles less able to support my spine. Quite the opposite.

There once was a large indentation along my spine on the concave side, due to weak muscle structure, prior to bracing. This area has filled in, and the muscles are vastly stronger - the rib hump on the left is very much reduced. I've had a few occasions (recently) to be out of brace for an entire weekend, free of pain - and stronger than I ever was before I began bracing.

Please don't tell people that the Spinecor brace results in atrophied muscles ... that simply is not true. All braces are not alike and Spinecor is vastly different from rigid bracing.

[Pooka1]

Vincent Bugliosi repeated an old saying in his book "Outrage" on how Simpson could not possibly be innocent given the established facts. The saying was about how some people simply don't want facts and was something like:

"A person who speaks the truth is driven out of nine villages."

I love that.

[dailystrength]

There once was a large indentation along my spine on the concave side, due to weak muscle structure, prior to bracing. This area has filled in, and the muscles are vastly stronger - the rib hump on the left is very much reduced. I've had a few occasions (recently) to be out of brace for an entire weekend, free of pain - and stronger than I ever was before I began bracing.

Wow, that is great!!! The PT place I am going to also deals with Spinecor braces. Thanks for the update. Do they also give you exercises to do while you are out of it, or after you are through wearing it?

[mamamax]

Thanks! It is pretty amazing :-) Where exactly are you going, sounds like a great place!

Yes, I was given a few Schroth exercises to work with - I've not been very compliant with that .. when the future permits, I'll look into an intensive workshop somewhere. In the mean time, the book you recommended is proving valuable (thanks so much). And I'm now walking more in brace (in the MBTs of course). I was told I could to Schroth out of brace. Interestingly enough , Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

Edit: The above anecdotal note concerning Sharon Dunn's son - was offered from memory of my correspondence with her.

[Pooka1]

Interestingly enough, Sharon Dunn's son did no exercise whatsoever, and has maintained his correction post treatment.

What was his pre-brace Cobb and what was his post-brace Cobb and how long was he out of brace when the post-brace radiograph was taken?

Did he ever go back into the brace after stopping?

[rohrer01]

This information is very interesting AND informative. I don't live near any certified Spinecor people. But I will ask about it. Like I think I mentioned before, my curve is high and tight, so I'm not holding my breath that this design would be able to help me personally, but is still worth looking into. I'm not in the "surgical" category until I hit 50* and am at 46*. This puts me in the surgical category only if I am having problems like pain, pinched nerves, etc. which I am. I would LOVE to have a non-surgical pain management program. Right now, at my age, and still having an inkling of hope of one more baby, I'm not sure if surgery would be best, just to get it over with. I am scared of a surgery of this magnitude at my age, but even more so in my 50's or 60's, even though I see many on here having it done at those ages. I'm just wondering now if there is some way to take advantage of the "damage" my chiropractor has done and turn it into a positive thing. Thanks again for all your replies, experiences and help. You are a great crowd to talk to.

[mamamax]

Rohrer01 ... sent you a PM ;-)

[mamamax]

Sharon - I really do not wish to get into a great debate with you.

Here's the original article: http://www.macleans.ca/science/healt...23_55198_55198

Sharon Dunn's email address is available on the Internet - you can write her and ask these questions. She's a really nice lady - be gentle?

[michael1960]

dailystrength and mamamax (and others)

Thanks for your support. This forum is so valuable.

While many orthopedic surgeons and scoliosis organizations do not support the SpineCor brace they also do not show much support for the Rigo-Cheneau (RC) brace.

I have heard many say that if the SpineCor brace or RC brace worked, then the orthopedic surgeons would be recommending them. We can all speculate why they do not recommend them, but unfortunately they just don't. However, just because the SRS or the orthopedic surgeons do not recommend a treatment, we should NEVER assume it is because it does not work.

For example, do the orthopedic surgeons recommend the Boston brace (instead of SpineCor or RC braces) because it is much more common (been around for a long time), because it is easier to make, because insurance covers it, because there are hundreds or thousands of orthotists that can make it, because there are more studies on it than other braces, because they don't want to take a risk of recommending a new brace and getting sued, because it is most effective, etc. Who knows? None of us know. All we can conclude is that most orthopedic surgeons seem to recommend what they know best, but it may not be what is currently the best. I look to the orthopedic surgeon for the best surgical techniques and their analysis of the spine for any underlying conditions that may be causing scoliosis, pain, etc.. But I do not look to them for the best bracing or for the best physical therapy. Personally, I would like the orthopedic surgeon to focus his or her time and resources on finding or validating new surgical techniques that keep us from spinal fusion (i.e. VBS) instead of new bracing and/or new physical therapy techniques.

Here is why this forum is so valuable: REAL EXPERIENCES FROM REAL PEOPLE. Forget the studies. Forget the SRS. Listen to what has worked and not worked for people. Over time you will see some common repeated threads or messages from different people. (Don't completely forget studies and SRS, but do not base final decision completely on them.). In the end, I want to hear from people who have experience, much more experience than me. I want their guidance. I have worked with 4 orthopedic surgeons and 3 chiropractors and 2 orthotists. But now I work primarily with one orthopedic surgeon, one chiropractor, and one orthotist. This is our team to manage Syd's scoliosis. But I would add to that team 5-10 people I have met through these forums who I wholeheartedly trust and respect.

While I have incredible respect for orthopedic surgeons, chiropractors and other professionals, all of them are still trying to figure out the best treatment for scoliosis. I have reached the point, with confidence, along with many others, that we have to manage our own scoliosis or that of our children, and we need to do it in a holistic manner working with many different professionals as we feel is required.

Michael

[LindaRacine]

Here is why this forum is so valuable: REAL EXPERIENCES FROM REAL PEOPLE. Forget the studies. Forget the SRS. Listen to what has worked and not worked for people. Over time you will see some common repeated threads or messages from different people. (Don't completely forget studies and SRS, but do not base final decision completely on them.). In the end, I want to hear from people who have experience, much more experience than me. I want their guidance. I have worked with 4 orthopedic surgeons and 3 chiropractors and 2 orthotists. But now I work primarily with one orthopedic surgeon, one chiropractor, and one orthotist. This is our team to manage Syd's scoliosis. But I would add to that team 5-10 people I have met through these forums who I wholeheartedly trust and respect.

For example, today, I have learned of an 8 yr. old (my daughter is also 8 with curve last year at 36) whose curve was 34 deg and in the RC brace her in-brace measurement was 3 deg. That is an incredible in-brace reduction. We are only 13 deg in the Boston brace. And after 15 months she is now 11 deg out of brace and will be going to part-time bracing. I don't care what the SRS recommends or what the different professionals recommend, the RC brace seems to work. She also shared with me another child who was in the 40s and is now in the 20s after only 5 months in the RC brace. There are many others making these claims with the RC brace, and not so much with the other more standard braces.

Not sure why one would trust the anecdotal evidence of a few people over a peer-reviewed study with a cohort of 10X or 100X that number. Had this forum been around 10 years ago, you would have definitely gotten sucked in by the Copes brace. There were dozens of people posting about their great results. The problem was, not one of those people had finished treatment. Copes sold hundreds of those braces, and I've never heard of a single one that was successful in the long term.

--Linda

[michael1960]

Linda

You raise a very good point. I have read studies, studies, and more studies. And like I said in the post, they should be considered, but should not drive a final decision.

Some studies (and some orthopedic surgeons) would tell us that bracing does not change the natural progression of any curve. Other studies would suggest that a brace can only stabilize a curve, not reduce a curve. Other studies exclude some of the latest bracing like SpineCor and Rigo-Cheneau braces.

Also, with bracing, and all the studies, some of the conclusions are not final because some did not factor in compliance, and we know compliance is a critical component. Others did not factor the degree of in-brace correction.

So, I can read and read and read these studies, and for every study that supports treatment A, I can usually find another one that supports treatment B over A.

Often these studies are not relevant. Many of the bracing studies are for AIS. I have a JIS. Other people discussing on this forum are adults, very few bracing studies for adults.

Some studies may be biased, especially when performed by the group who is promoting a new treatment or product.

Being an engineering type person, I started this journey reading about every relevant study I could find. My plan was to make all decisions based on studies. And in the end, I have found more valuable real life experiences from people who are almost identical to my child. For example, I very much value hearing from moms (and sometimes there are a few dads) who have a daughter, 8 yrs. old, with a 30+ curve. I value their experience with bracing (not only whether the bracing worked but how the 8 yr. girl handled it, not only physically but emotionally wearing it to school, being with her friends, etc.).

When I see 2, 3, 4, 5+ stories all regarding the RC brace and success with 7 and 8 yr. olds, I listen wholeheartedly.

Again, you raise a very good point. That is why I said to look at the studies. But definitely do not make a final treatment decisions on studies alone. You have to find a study that is relevant: 8 yr old (JIS), 30+ degree thoracic curve, 15 deg rotation, all braces included (if looking at a bracing study), etc. Good luck finding that study. It took me some time to realize that most of the studies were not relevant to my 8 yr. old, most were for AIS. And I have learned that an 8 yr. old reacts much different to treatment than a 13-14 yr. old.

That is my reason. It may or may not be a good reason, but none the less, that is what I was thinking when I made that comment.

Thank you for raising the point. I would sure not want anyone to think they should ignore studies. A relevant study can be valuable. The trouble is finding one.

And excellent point about COPES. I agree with you. Not sure I would have been sucked in, but it is possible. Not sure it is any different in all of us heading down the path of VBS. We see short term results (3-5 yrs), but we do not know the long term effects of having staples left in the spine or the impact on the vertebrae growth plates. I have yet to find a no-risk path. I guess it is all about trying to manage our risk.

Michael

[michael1960]

Linda

One last point. If we do not take a risk with some of these new surgical and non-surgical techniques, and only follow the advice of the SRS and many orthopedic surgeons, and studies, we are left with the following common approach:

1. Wait and Watch It until 25 degrees

2. Brace it with one of the common braces (like Boston brace)

3. And when it reaches 45 deg perform spinal fusion (or growing rods then spinal fusion)

That is not much of a plan. That plan has a high probability of ending up with spinal fusion. For me and many others, spinal fusion (or growing rods then spinal fusion) is the absolute last resort.

If we do not want to take this path, then we have to take some risks. In most cases I have found the risks to be financial risks more so then health risks. I know there are some exceptions to this statement.

But none of these other treatments will probably ever have the health risk comparable to that of going to someone in the medical profession (100K-200K deaths per year due to medical errors).

What was the risk to the people who tried COPES? Was it a health risk or a financial risk? I assume a financial risk.

I have taken the financial risk with several treatments. The only issue I have when I take one of these risks and it does not work (other than the financial loss) is the amount of time I lost.

For example, the past 5 months I have spent a lot of money on several different treatments, some are working, some are not. And, I wished I would have gone to the RC brace much sooner vs the SpineCor and Boston brace we are using right now. I feel I have lost 5 months of time. Actually I feel I have lost 12-18 months of time because we should had been in a brace over a year ago. But, no point in looking back, must look forward and do what we can right now.

So, to summarize, I think some of the latest treatments are a risk (probably more financial risk than health risk), but some of these latest treatments may also be the most effective.

It is about balancing the risk of a new treatment with that of an old treatment that may lead to spinal fusion. Right now many of us are willing to take a chance with a new treatment that has worked for others and see if we can keep our child from having any surgery (our #1 goal).

Michael

[Pooka1]

Sharon - I really do not wish to get into a great debate with you.

Here's the original article: http://www.macleans.ca/science/healt...23_55198_55198

Sharon Dunn's email address is available on the Internet - you can write her and ask these questions. She's a really nice lady - be gentle?

We have discussed that article before. Sharon Dunn is a very confused woman and that article contains many fallacious statements. The blind leading the blind leading the naked.

But we do have this admission from the inventors that the use of the brace in adults is only pain relief, not curve reduction:

The brace has been used on adults for only about two years, the goal being pain relief not straightening since the spine is mature. "No one thought it would help adults," said Collaird. Still, Rivard admits that the brace doesn't work for everyone.

Mamamax you mention curve reduction but the only reason you are not gigged on this by the moderator is that you leave out the word, "permanent." That saves your post. If you included that the post would be removed.

The patient is 22.
The pre-brace Cobb was <40*.
He was wearing the brace 9 months at the time of the article writing.
The article was written in January 2008.

There is no mention of stopping the brace and no mention of a reduction in Cobb angle. So Mamamax must have gotten that personally from the Dunns.

So my questions to Mamamax given her claims in this thread about this guy:

1. What did they tell you about how long he wore the brace?
2. What was the post brace Cobb angle?
3. How long was he out of brace when the post brace angle was shot?
4. Has he ever gone back into the brace for pain?
5. Are the Cobb angles coming out of Montreal?

If you can't answer these questions, can you please edit your posts above so they aren't completely misleading or worse? Thanks.

[Pooka1]

Not sure why one would trust the anecdotal evidence of a few people over a peer-reviewed study with a cohort of 10X or 100X that number. Had this forum been around 10 years ago, you would have definitely gotten sucked in by the Copes brace. There were dozens of people posting about their great results. The problem was, not one of those people had finished treatment. Copes sold hundreds of those braces, and I've never heard of a single one that was successful in the long term.

--Linda

If anecdotal evidence was worthwhile then we would have to accept all manner of pseudoscience including:

1. UFOs
2. faith healing
3. homeopathy
4. tarot cards
5. efficacy of prayer
6. astrology
7. etc.

Unfortunately most people don't have a lick of training necessary to weed out fact from fantasy. But if they were raised with a sense of skepticism and even just thinking and reasoning in a rational manner they would be taken in far less than they are.