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How folkscience can kill innocent babies

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  • I wrote:

    That is the Robert Kennedy piece. Someone associated with Kennedy who was on this bandwagon with him has since abandoned it. Can't recall the guy's name. The data rule out a connection between EtHg and autism and his buddy admitted it. Why Kennedy doesn't also admit it is a mystery and it undermines his credibility on everything because of it.
    I still can't remember his name but I remember his new position a bit... while he abandoned Hg in vaccines as causative of autism he did not abandon Hg per se as causative. I think his claim became atmospheric Hg is rising and therefore causing the rise in autism rates.

    But the bottom line is anyone who is familiar with the data must abandon the hypothesis that EtHg in vaccines is linked in a detectable way with autism.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • In conclusion?

      So there we have it ... based on this thread: there can be only one of two conclusions from which to draw, either (1) nobody knows, or (2) everybody knows :-)

      This would be amusing were it not for the lives touched by the tragedy of not knowing which "organisms" cannot tolerate certain substances.

      Anyway - is this a "sandbox" or, a mental institution without medication? I wonder sometimes - and freely admit that when those times appear, that it is time to adjust my attitude which typically involves simply walking away from a debate which obviously cannot factually be won - outside of some pretty glorious pontification and amusing one line zingers. And yeah, I can be just as "mental" as anyone else :-)

      Truth is, in the end, most all would like to see a world free of suffering - in a world which holds no lack thereof. Science holds an important place - but until it can provide cures and avoid sufferings - hey, it's in its infancy and actually suffers from its own brand of - folk science and experimentation through trial and error.

      That's all I know about this - I'm trying to figure out what this thread taught me about the darker side of vaccination. I guess it would be - that some whose lives have not been touched by it - cannot fully understand that something, is amiss. Again a forest not seen for the many trees. Wondering if there is something in my medicine cabinet for this. Wish I had a body that would allow me to jog - feeling like a three mile run would be quite beneficial :-)
      Last edited by mamamax; 09-25-2010, 09:29 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
        So there we have it ... based on this thread: there can be only one of two conclusions from which to draw, either (1) nobody knows, or (2) everybody knows :-)
        Experts have the best chance of knowing. Lay, untrained people who don't even have a rational guess as to how much time and effort it would take to truly get their arms around this subject, not so much.

        No need to unduly complicate matters beyond that.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • I would agree that experts have the best chance of knowing - or should have the best chance of knowing (anything in their given field with rare exception). Sometimes however, expert knowledge can be blinded by its own brilliance.

          The lay, untrained people with a passion for learning should not be discounted. Case in Point: Agusto Lorenzo http://www.myelin.org/

          Generally speaking - proof, truth, evidence: is constantly changing, and evolving, and is obviously (given the world we live in) ... elusive.

          Making science - both elegantly simple and complex at the same time .. something which is supposed to be physically impossible, according to the laws of physics :-)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
            The lay, untrained people with a passion for learning should not be discounted. Case in Point: Agusto Lorenzo http://www.myelin.org/
            Yes he put in the time and effort and most importantly worked with an expert. That is in distinct contrast to the great run of lay, untrained people who do none of that and don't even realize the magnitude of effort required nor even the scope of the problem in some cases.

            Anyone can boot themselves up. Most people never put in the effort required. Odone is a rare exception. The world is not crawling with these folks.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by skevimc View Post
              When we find out our soap-box (or research paper) is factually incorrect, we should all take a lesson from Rosanne Rosannadanna and learn this phrase. "Never mind".
              That should be Emily Litella. Not Rosanne Rosannadanna. Whew. Glad I got that off my chest.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                Yes he put in the time and effort and most importantly worked with an expert. That is in distinct contrast to the great run of lay, untrained people who do none of that and don't even realize the magnitude of effort required nor even the scope of the problem in some cases.

                Anyone can boot themselves up. Most people never put in the effort required. Odone is a rare exception. The world is not crawling with these folks.
                Yes Odone was/is a rare exception - given his accomplishments and his ability to surround himself with experts to fill the gaps in his own knowledge. But I don't think the Odone-spirit is so rare, as evidenced by those like yourself, Dingo, Ballet Mom and a host of others here that I am forgetting to mention (my apologies).

                This makes the only real difference - one of opportunity, dedication, cooperation and coordination. Here is the rarity, in my opinion.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                  [But I don't think the Odone-spirit is so rare, as evidenced by those like yourself,
                  No not me. Other than needing to know the minuscule amount to deal with my daughters, I have no scientific curiosity about this field. It is just anther incredibly complex medical issue along with a million others.

                  If I wanted to go into medicine I would have done so. Knowing what I know now about the limitations of medical research, I am glad I didn't go into it... too much work for too little explanatory power. Seems frustrating.

                  Actually if I had to do it over I might have gone into brain research because controlled studies can be done. These researchers are going to "solve" a lot of things that many people don't even realize (or won't admit) need solving. It is way too exciting.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • Pooka1 -

                    In part, the Odone-Spirit, as I call it - has to do with a passion to do all that he could as a parent for his child. You did this. So there is in part, some Odone-Spirit in you. In my opinion.

                    Brain research is a fascinating topic - and for all we really know, may one day hold some very important keys for those of us who must live daily with scoliosis - who knows?

                    A pity that you have no interest or curiosity in the field of scoliosis research (unless I'm reading you wrong), your input on that could be supportive to those of us who do have a passionate interest and curiosity.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                      Yes, I see the conflicting reports.
                      By the way, there are no conflicting reports to my knowledge. The people familiar with the data say one thing and other say something else. It is perverse to hold that EtHg causes autism given the data in hand.

                      In this regard it is no different that any number of other issue (the earth being a few billion years old, the fact of evolution, the earth not being flat, the Holocaust happened, etc. etc.).

                      There are "reports" that claim these facts aren't true but I wouldn't say they conflict with the data. They are simply nonsense.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • Science can't prove a non-association. There are reports which suggest the two are not associated, but it can not be said to be "proven" in the way in which a positive link is proven. The way science would prove the non-association is to show what *does* cause it. That would end the discussion.

                        Without actually seeing the reports, then, I can't say how strong the suggestion (never a proof) is. When I had a first cursory read about scoliosis, it was "proven" that exercise had no effect on curves. Given my further reading, I can say that that claim is not altogether true.

                        I'm not saying that I doubt the vaccine studies. I'm just saying that I'm not taking them on faith - either faith in the government or faith in the researchers - the way I would take on faith a strongly proven *positive* association.

                        Comment


                        • I find it hysterical that Dingo is being grouped with Odone.
                          Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                          Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                            Science can't prove a non-association.
                            It can amass enough data in support and amass enough data disproving a claim that it would be perverse to say there is much of a possibility of an association. And example is the earth being a few billion years old. There is a boatload of independent data that are all mutually buttress dates in a tight range around ~4.55 x 10^9 a. There is no credible data for dates that are much different from that tight range.

                            But in general and in the strictest sense, you are correct that all claims are still tentative even things we elevate to facts. That is just the state of affairs. But also in general, it is easier to disprove something than to prove it. That's the way science is. So while it is a piece fo cake to disprove a few thousand year old earth (through simple inspection even) it is a tad harder to prove the true age of a few billion years. Nevertheless, the true age of a few billion years has been elevated to a fact due to the multiple lines of independent evidence all converging on a very narrow range of ~4.55 x 10^9 a. It strains credulity too much to suggest all these independent lines of evidence would coincidentally converge at all.

                            There are reports which suggest the two are not associated, but it can not be said to be "proven" in the way in which a positive link is proven. The way science would prove the non-association is to show what *does* cause it. That would end the discussion.
                            No. Proving something that ALSO might cause something is not a prove against something else. It could be BOTH things are causative.

                            Without actually seeing the reports, then, I can't say how strong the suggestion (never a proof) is. When I had a first cursory read about scoliosis, it was "proven" that exercise had no effect on curves. Given my further reading, I can say that that claim is not altogether true.
                            You have to carefully sort out the terminology of the experts versus the unwashed masses if you are going to go down that road. Scientists, hopefully, are careful with wording.

                            I'm not saying that I doubt the vaccine studies. I'm just saying that I'm not taking them on faith - either faith in the government or faith in the researchers - the way I would take on faith a strongly proven *positive* association.
                            No rational person would ask you to accept that or anything on faith. A rational person demands evidence which in the present case is there.

                            And in general, I am more likely to believe a disproof than a proof. Science is just stronger in disproof than in proof.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • Dingo is fighting the good fight for his son, and is managing to almost single-handedly hold open the discussion of non-surgical treatment. I consider him heroic, in his own small sphere.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                                I find it hysterical that Dingo is being grouped with Odone.
                                I think this completely discounts the efforts over years and years that Odone brought to bear. There is no commonality between the two.

                                Now Odone was working with a MUCH more defined malady than scoliosis so there is that.
                                Last edited by Pooka1; 09-26-2010, 12:28 PM.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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