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Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt

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  • 'You started the thread and you gave it this title

    "Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "



    Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? '

    .
    .
    .

    So why then you quoted another post??? Do you understand why I talk about your fault of logics?
    Last edited by flerc; 02-06-2017, 08:55 AM.

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    • In fact is not only a waste of time for logic people to talk with you, Is Impossible!!

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      • Originally posted by flerc View Post
        'You started the thread and you gave it this title

        "Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "



        Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? '

        .
        .
        .

        So why then you quoted another post??? Do you understand why I talk about your fault of logics?



        I quoted your FIRST post and then the later one as you claimed not have said the first statement- and you claimed to have corroborated it the second statement. . Corroboration is not saying the same thing over and over - corroboration is providing objective proof. Where is your proof?

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        • Originally posted by burdle View Post
          You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT- you have just concluded that they don't because you have spoken to patients who have not heard of VBT after they have visited a surgeon? Unless you conduct a poll and ask surgeons in context you simply are ILLOGICAl to draw those conclusions.

          Moreover you are doing harm, harm to people who come on this forum for information and support. Doctors and surgeons are on our side. When a new procedure becomes absolutely viable then it becomes an obvious topic of conversation between a patient and the doctor. Stop trying to make out that because you have read some chiro article or whatever that this is not the case.

          I am surprised that VBT isn't discussed more on this forum but I don't believe it is not because of anyone's decision. It is not just numbers of VBT procedures are low - it may be because they go to a perfectly valid Facebook group. That's their choice. I personally find that Facebook does not really allow a stream of debate- too many people jump in and distort a discussion. But that is their choice. I prefer this sort of forum - yes even with you doing what you do- because it is much clearer to read and follow.

          I may be wrong but I think in UK doctors are not doing VBT while they wait outcomes of existing surgeries- i.e. see if the VBT works. I would welcome being corrected on this though. Not by Flerc- because she simply would not know how to find out. Flerc would accept what any site says without researching its provenance.
          MY GODDD!!!!!! try to be sure about what you says, you only quoted the post I said!!!!!

          Comment


          • Are you sure you wants to continue with this? I should really to believe then you are masochist!. Remember this please
            Originally posted by flerc View Post
            You should to ask the moderator for closing this thread, it would be the best for you and also for MENSA and Scientist Researchers Societies.
            I feel like boxing with a little angry kid. Ask to your corner for throwing you the towell please!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by flerc View Post
              MY GODDD!!!!!! try to be sure about what you says, you only quoted the post I said!!!!!
              Flerc - just to explain.

              When someone quotes a previous post, it is because they are referring to that post specifically!!!

              So I referred to your post and then I make my further comment. Don't you understand?

              So I referred to your post where you said you have corroborated and asked WHERE was the corroboration? I still ask where is your proof about what fusion surgeons say. It is a simple question.

              Similarly I referred to the title of the thread as evidence of what you said- because you denied it later.

              Try to keep up with continuity!

              Comment


              • If you want me continuing with this.. ok!. But I'll do it in a way not allowing to merging everything as it would be all the same when is not. So we are going step by step, ok?
                I assume you said Yes.
                Ok, all this began with what I said

                Originally posted by flerc View Post
                I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.
                and then you saying me
                Originally posted by burdle View Post
                You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT- you have just concluded that they don't because you have spoken to patients who have not heard of VBT after they have visited a surgeon? Unless you conduct a poll and ask surgeons in context you simply are ILLOGICAl to draw those conclusions.
                Is enough clear FOR EVERYONE that the only thing I have said I corroborated in this thread is what I remarked, OK?

                So it have not much sense what you said then.. certainly you only make me laugh saying me ILLOGICAl as you did

                Do you see now how imprecise and wrong is all what you said up to this point? If you agree I will continue
                Last edited by flerc; 02-06-2017, 03:28 PM.

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                • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                  If you agree I will continue
                  And if not, explain why not, and I'll remark your mistakes in your explanation.
                  Last edited by flerc; 02-06-2017, 09:31 PM.

                  Comment


                  • what about disk degeneration? they are applying a lot of force between the vertebrae, in the discs, either the tether or the staples. sooner or later all those disks may be candidates for artificial disk replacements. well, truth be told, in fusion surgery the disks above and below are candidates for surgery as well in the future.

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                    • Are you sure about this? I ever thought that in fusion surgery the disks above were not suffering any kind of degeneration and only those below are candidates for surgery in the future. The very much reasonable explanation I know says that without fusion, the weight of the body is distributed among all vertebras and disks, disks are absorving that force losing high, but after fusion, only the unfused disks bellow must to support all the weight not absorved any more for the fused disks. Of course this not apply to the dsks above, wich continue absorving the same force, and of course it has nothing to do with Vbt.. as I know the disks continue absorving the force.
                      I also heard that few movility leads to degenerationis and it's not the same after fusion in the rest of the spine so , probably this may also be happening in the above disks, I don't know, but again it would not have nothing to do with Vbt, at least I have never heard about a significand lost of movility.
                      Last edited by flerc; 02-08-2017, 04:57 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re-aligning the spine through tethering would seem to make sense as far as preserving discs, but I believe this is still unknown. I have had disc herniation’s in my lumbar in a 70 degree curve that drove me into surgery, and I also have or had herniation’s in my neck with no scoliosis (before my surgeries, stated in my hospital reports). Its obvious that gravity did not have a profound affect, and that my disc problems were far from being a simple structural problem.

                        Rotation is also an interesting question, it had no affect on my discs since I am an example of herniated discs with and without scoliosis. It would be interesting to see before and after CT scans of rotation in a tethered patient. I have my CT scans after my scoliosis surgery (done for gall problems) that show the improved rotation correction. When tethering corrects coronal curves, what happens to vertebral rotation? Does it improve?

                        With all the excitement involving this thread, I must report that there is an adult patient that contacted me through a PM and that person is doing a tethering consult. Since PM is private, I wont disclose anything more. After the consult, I am truly hoping that this person will post information on the visit since we are all very interested.

                        We need more data and testimonials on adult tethering.....

                        We put several astronauts on the moon, but it still doesn’t guarantee safety in space travel.

                        Nothing happens fast.

                        Ed
                        49 yr old male, now 63, the new 64...
                        Pre surgery curves T70,L70
                        ALIF/PSA T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
                        Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

                        Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
                        http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

                        My x-rays
                        http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

                        http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                          If you want me continuing with this.. ok!. But I'll do it in a way not allowing to merging everything as it would be all the same when is not. So we are going step by step, ok?
                          I assume you said Yes.
                          Ok, all this began with what I said



                          and then you saying me


                          Is enough clear FOR EVERYONE that the only thing I have said I corroborated in this thread is what I remarked, OK?

                          So it have not much sense what you said then.. certainly you only make me laugh saying me ILLOGICAl as you did

                          Do you see now how imprecise and wrong is all what you said up to this point? If you agree I will continue

                          This is what you began with: It is your first post and title of this thread.

                          "Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "

                          Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? "

                          I challenged you to corroborate ie prove what you said. You did not corroborate or prove- to do so you would need to have actually named surgeons.

                          Then you said

                          I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.


                          Again I asked you to prove that only surgeons have a dishonest reason with their patients to not talk about VBT. For a start all sorts of medical people might not talk with their patients ( so illogical here to say only surgeons ) - to prove this statement you would have to show that surgeons were not talking about vbt etc… and you have not shown this

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by burdle View Post
                            This is what you began with: It is your first post and title of this thread.

                            "Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt "

                            Even worse, why they are not telling their patients that something new (if we realize that fusion has more than a century) and without its serious disadvantages is available for them? "

                            I challenged you to corroborate ie prove what you said. You did not corroborate or prove- to do so you would need to have actually named surgeons.

                            Then you said

                            I have corroborated what I supposed, that is, only fusion surgeons has not an honest reason to not talk with their patients about Vbt. Of course except the exceptional cases where they are absolutely sure that Vbt cannot be used (now or in a possible future) and they have not and will never has sons. Period.


                            Again I asked you to prove that only surgeons have a dishonest reason with their patients to not talk about VBT. For a start all sorts of medical people might not talk with their patients ( so illogical here to say only surgeons ) - to prove this statement you would have to show that surgeons were not talking about vbt etc… and you have not shown this
                            In fact I'm not sure if you definitely are not able to understand how much incorrect you was saying this

                            Originally posted by burdle View Post
                            You have not corroborated anything- you just keep saying it. You don't know surgeons don't talk about VBT
                            when I was saying that I corroborated (because what I quoted) that surgeons has not honest reasons to don't tell their patients about Vbt. Probably you only are not enough honest to accept it.

                            But since has not any sense this kind of discussion with you, ok. I will accept your challenge when you prove that Spinecor for adults don't works as you always says!. I must to explain you again that saying 'I corroborated' means that I got a proof for myself, not necessarily for anyone reading only this thread. What I quoted was enough proof for me.. and certainly I wait for your proof about Spinecor and everything you defame or giving your apologies and shuting your mouth about things you have not idea as you ever shows.
                            Last edited by flerc; 02-08-2017, 05:25 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by titaniumed View Post
                              We need more data and testimonials on adult tethering.....

                              We put several astronauts on the moon, but it still doesn’t guarantee safety in space travel.

                              Nothing happens fast.

                              Ed
                              For what? For tell adults decided to take surgery about Vbt??
                              Do you think that fusion guarantee safety?. The issue here is fusion vs Vbt.
                              You can contribute to going faster, getting more data and testimonials on adult tethering, you talk with many people here decided to have fusion, you may tell them about Vbt. They are not stupids, they can take decisions by themselves, they may join the Vbt group and ask about all what you say, but if they don't knows that something as Vbt exists and it is used in adults, nothing they may do. My apologies if you are not doing the same as Pooka1 does, that is, just only answering what people previously knowing about Vbt ask her about it.
                              Last edited by flerc; 02-08-2017, 05:58 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by titaniumed View Post

                                Rotation is also an interesting question, it had no affect on my discs since I am an example of herniated discs with and without scoliosis. It would be interesting to see before and after CT scans of rotation in a tethered patient. I have my CT scans after my scoliosis surgery (done for gall problems) that show the improved rotation correction. When tethering corrects coronal curves, what happens to vertebral rotation? Does it improve?
                                Vbt is only used in flexible spines. I'm not sure at all but I believe it would be the same concept used in the original Spinecor protocol, not used by CLEAR, that is, the curve must to be reduced being lying down, that is, not forces should to be used to get that reduction, just only to hold it . When the spine natural bends to one side the rotation is provoked in the opposite way. At least I have read once about that law. So rotation should to be reduced with Spinecor and Vbt.

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