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Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Elisa View Post
    I didn't say that he was a fraud, rather that he claims to be a "scoliosis specialist" when in actual fact he is really only giving his own personal experience, like we all do here. And no, this forum does not allow links to sites that are selling goods or services, it is a forum for discussing scoliosis. If it did allow links to commercial sites, one can only imagine how many people would join up here for the sole purpose of selling their wares. We'd have thousands of new members every week! I personally like that rule and it keeps the forum free from spam.
    I really believe it would be fine to know about new methods. Which if not is the idea of the Non-Surgical-Treatments section? I could understand what you say if he would be only an Alexander or Rolfing practitioner or a surgeon.. then could be seen only as someone selling their wares. But a combination of method really might be seen as other different.. I believe it may be shown and explained and a website if surely the best way to do it.

    Comment


    • #77
      flerc, I think you're missing my point here. Everyone is free to discuss whatever treatments they feel are beneficial, to share with others and to debate etc. Lots of people have their blogs attached to their signatures (myself included) but we are not selling anything. TOscoliosis' website is a 'commercial' site where he does in fact charge money for his services; that's the difference. Go ahead and ask him all the questions you want and I'm sure he'll have lots of answers for you. I'm not trying to stop discussion here, I'm trying to explain to you why his original post was deleted.
      Son 14 y/o diagnosed January 20th. 2011 with 110* Curve
      Halo Traction & 1st. surgery on March 22nd. 2011
      Spinal Fusion on April 19th. 2011

      Dr. Krajbich @ Shriners Childrens Hospital, Portland Oregon



      http://tinyurl.com/Elias-Before
      http://tinyurl.com/Elias-After

      Comment


      • #78
        Elisa, I understand what you say and of course we may think different. The point is that I don’t see anything bad in giving to know about new methods even by the creator through a link to the website in her first post.. anyway I understand that if the link is attached in the signature in all the posts, it would be questionable, but I don’t remember to saw it.
        Anyway, if this is the criteria, now I undesrtand (not agree) it.
        Thanks!

        Comment


        • #79
          The last question

          TOscoliosis, Lately I have lost almost all hope, but who knows.. maybe you may help me to understand something.
          The question with adult people that seems that nobody in the world is able to answer is the following: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...e-guilty-ones&
          But going more in deep.. I believe that if an adult with a great flexibility (enough to also allow same derotation) would be lying down in an inclined plane http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/in...es-d_1305.html (head in the top) first with 0 degrees, a great reduction of the curve will occurs. While the degrees of the plane became to increase, gravity force became to compress the spine, but the vertebras would be enough aligned (all allowed by vertebra shape) in this reduced curve, so it would not be so easy to gravity force to increase it.. but when the gravity force increase enough (with the degrees of the plane) the vertebras would suffer a rotation again and the stack would be misaligned again so the curve increase again. Why? What is failing?


          But what might occurs if first, the shoulders, ribs.. would be tied to the plane with a rope, so rotation could not occurs? I believe that when the inclined plane would reaches 90° it would be possible to remains stand up with a great reduction of the curve, but it would be not the same to what a brace does. A brace is an external force holding the spine (and then the back) straight supporting her weight (at least it should to do it). As I know it not intend to only avoid misaligned in the spine but instead, doing enough force to hold it.
          But In this case the spine would remain straight by herself.. not at all of course, the rope would be doing the work that muscles, ligaments, joints, fascias, rib cage, internal organs, tendons..??? are not doing right. But it would not be holding the weight of the spine, like all those back components also not does. They only helps to keep the vertebras aligned so the spine may hold by her own the back weight.

          But when the rope is removed, the gravity force would have not resistance to misaligned again the spine and the curve arise again.
          So, what is failing in the body not avoiding the effect of gravity force to misaligned the spine?
          Suppose we have 2 twins, one with 20° degrees more than the other and when he remains stand up in the plane, he reduce exactly 20° so both ‘would have’ the same curve. Which would be the difference in soft tissues of both twins allowing one of them to remain by herself with less degrees.. that is, which tissue is not able in the other to keep the vertebras aligned???
          It remembers me the great Issac Asimov novel http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
          English is not my native language, so say me please if something is not enough clear.
          Thanks in advance.
          Last edited by flerc; 12-18-2011, 03:54 PM.

          Comment


          • #80
            I hope he comes back soon and answers your questions flerc.
            Son 14 y/o diagnosed January 20th. 2011 with 110* Curve
            Halo Traction & 1st. surgery on March 22nd. 2011
            Spinal Fusion on April 19th. 2011

            Dr. Krajbich @ Shriners Childrens Hospital, Portland Oregon



            http://tinyurl.com/Elias-Before
            http://tinyurl.com/Elias-After

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by flerc View Post
              I really believe it would be fine to know about new methods.
              But of course you mean new methods with evidence of efficacy, si?

              Which if not is the idea of the Non-Surgical-Treatments section?
              The non-surgical section should be every bit as scientific and evidence-based as the surgical section. It should not be a free-for-all for anyone without training to claim anything.

              I could understand what you say if he would be only an Alexander or Rolfing practitioner or a surgeon.. then could be seen only as someone selling their wares. But a combination of method really might be seen as other different.. I believe it may be shown and explained and a website if surely the best way to do it.
              Yes a combination could produce better results than either method alone. But it is not enough just to SAY that the combination is effective. They have to SHOW it is effective with EVIDENCE. Especially if they are CHARGING people. Llámame loco!
              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

              No island of sanity.

              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
              Answer: Medicine


              "We are all African."

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: The Last Question

                Hello flerc,
                Thank you very much for your welcome to the forums. I'm happy to be involved in the conversation!

                I'm going to start by summing up your question as I understood it. I hope this is a fair interpretation of what you were asking and not too simplified!

                "If a person, when lying down, can lie in such a way that their curve is visibly reduced, then why can't they maintain this improved shape when they come to standing?"

                Here are my thoughts on that question.

                I have noticed that it is not just the change from lying to standing that reveals scoliosis differently. It is also the change from sitting to standing. Structural Integration practitioners will have a person sit and stand when doing a visual examination. Sometimes we see that people's backs look more balanced when sitting than when standing. This tells us that there is something in the relationship of the person's legs to the rest of her or his body that is causing difficulty.

                In my opinion people working with scoliosis could benefit from spending more time organizing a person's legs in relation to the rest of their bodies. A lack of balance in the legs is a contributing factor for why a person struggles to maintain a straighter body when moving from lying and/or sitting to standing up.

                Another contributor is the inaccurate proprioception of those of us with scoliosis. This is our sense of how our body parts relate to each other in space. When we are lying down or sitting our sense of balance is not as challenged as when we are standing - the more contact points we have with the ground, or other support, the easier it is to be balanced. When we are standing we have only our feet to balance our spines and the rest of our bodies on. Some research has shown that people with scoliosis do less well with tasks that require accurate proprioception than the average person. In their article on the etiopathogenesis (cause and development) of scoliosis Wang Et. Al. wrote that some researchers

                "implicated CNS disturbance producing visuospatial perceptual impairment, motor adaptation, and learning deficits which lead to faulty recalibration of proprioceptive signals from axial musculature causing IS." They mean that a person's poor proprioception may be a contributor to causing scoliosis, as they cause postural muscles to work asymmetrically.

                When I work with my own scoliosis I use three main positions: lying down, sitting and standing. I spend the most time on sitting and standing. With the use of mirrors and Alexander Technique training I have been working to organize myself in a symmetrical way in sitting and then to maintain this change as I move to standing. This is very challenging, because of three difficult obstacles:
                My faulty proprioception.
                My previous habits of posture and movement.
                My asymmetrical muscles, some of which are overly toned and some of which have less tone than they should. Some muscles are pulled overly tight and some stretched overly long.

                While challenging, this exercise has become more possible for me over time and has helped me significantly straighten out my scoliosis.

                I hope this was helpful and I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts and the thoughts of others. Attached are photographs comparing my body in 2005 and 2011. Front and back images are included.
                Attached Files
                Joshua
                Diagnosed with 42 degree thoracolumbar scoliosis in 1996
                1997 - 45 degrees
                2003 - 29 degrees
                2011 - 27 degrees
                http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...osis/front.jpg
                http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...sis/Lumbar.jpg
                http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...s/Thoracic.jpg

                Comment


                • #83
                  Thanks for posting that. Can you also post the two radiographs (42* and 29*). Thanks.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Sorry if this isn't exactly on the topic of Martha Hawes, (I own her book too - bought years ago, from NSF)
                    I think I might be with you on this one flerc, regarding links to sites in posts, but maybe I havent thought about it properly.
                    And I'm not saying that because I own sites.
                    I definately believe that there should be some standards for information about scoliosis on the internet, to make information more easily accessable and to stop patients being taken advantage of by those that would cross the lines of morality in pursuit of financial benefits.
                    - And I'm going to some expense and effort to do this.
                    I also understand that this forum is the first line of defence in attempting to provide accurate information to the ones who seek it.
                    But part of me thinks its the wrong thing to do to deny people to list their scoliosis website on their posts.
                    In fact I wonder whether the opposite is better - To force people to disclose any website interest they own.
                    Consider this, there could be half a dozen clear institute people already as members of the forum and you wouldn't even know unless we forced them to disclose their web interests. They could be posing as normal people to try to push the ones seeking info in the direction they want.
                    Next by denying posting the links, the sites then generally go under the radar meaning the people of this forum don't know about them and the people who havent yet found this forum are exposed to the sites without any watchdog to be looking out for them.
                    At least if you disclose a web or business interest then peoples comments on the forum can be taken in the correct context.
                    Who's better to pick apart a website and determine whether its helpful or hindering the main direction of scoliosis then the people of this forum??
                    By not taking this situation seriously and avoiding the issue, were actually helping to give these types of sites free reign over the internet.
                    You people are supposed to be the front line watchdog for the desperate people seeking help and info on the internet about scoliosis.
                    And its because what needs to be done isn't being done, that I have to do it myself.

                    Im not going to mention my sites again since some people may be offended.
                    I really don't need to advertise my sites on here, eventually they will advertise themselves anyway.
                    But to anyone that cares, I have now transferred my site to its correct domain.
                    I've also added a facebook like community to the site, but I want to stress that I'm not building scoliosis support group websites at this point, and I may never do so.
                    My plan for my sites at this time is generally to support and promote the true scoliosis support groups such as this one for instance.
                    The facebook like community I've installed is part of the site mainly to test functionality for websites later on and is more for lets say a group not discussing scoliosis issues but for a group to discuss improving the quality of scoliosis sites.
                    That site is the site for all my sites, and that community is the place to discuss issues and improvements to all the sites if you get me.
                    - Scott
                    Last edited by sjmcphee; 12-15-2011, 08:17 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I dont' understand what you're talking about, if you're talking to me that is. I only want to stress that correcting degrees in an adult spine is NOT possible, I went to ISICO in Milan, Italy, and had a thorough visit with them (€135 or so), face to face, not trusting some rubbish written on the net, or some "study" or "research" online, and she clearly told me that correcting an adult spine in my case was pure fantasy, might get a couple of degrees off at best but it wouldn't even be a result. They all work on muscles and posture only...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                        I dont' understand what you're talking about, if you're talking to me that is. I only want to stress that correcting degrees in an adult spine is NOT possible, I went to ISICO in Milan, Italy, and had a thorough visit with them (€135 or so), face to face, not trusting some rubbish written on the net, or some "study" or "research" online, and she clearly told me that correcting an adult spine in my case was pure fantasy, might get a couple of degrees off at best but it wouldn't even be a result. They all work on muscles and posture only...
                        Alistair, maybe I am not following along but for an adult with no growth left, I don't think anyone (except maybe chiros) are claiming they are permanently altering the structural curve such that any gains are not exercise dependent. A possible except is Hawes in my opinion because the breathing stuff expanded her rib cage resulting in an unexpected decrease in her curve from the biomechanics of it as far as I can tell. To the extent that her rib cage expansion is no longer exercise dependent then that might be considered a permanent change to an adult spinal curve for the better. Who knows.

                        Now stopping progression in adults with PT is more of a grey area and I can see some PT advocates claiming the "ground" when an exercising adult stops progressing in the short term. But the long term is largely unknown outside of the Hawes case and the yoga woman and perhaps one other. Also, it can never be known if the curve didn't stop by itself... we have a few people here who made it to about 50* and just hung there for years and years NOT doing exercise.

                        And of course the question is open about PT and kids. It is possible PT can stop progression in kids and maybe even gain permanent ground on a structural curve. That possibility has not been disproven. It's just hard proving anything, one way or the other, with conservative scoliosis treatments.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by TOscoliosis View Post
                          I have noticed that it is not just the change from lying to standing that reveals scoliosis differently. It is also the change from sitting to standing. Structural Integration practitioners will have a person sit and stand when doing a visual examination. Sometimes we see that people's backs look more balanced when sitting than when standing. This tells us that there is something in the relationship of the person's legs to the rest of her or his body that is causing difficulty.
                          Really a very good procedure, extremely logic. Common sense never should to be abandoned. I don’t know how many professionals do this.. surely no so many..


                          Originally posted by TOscoliosis View Post
                          I spend the most time on sitting and standing. With the use of mirrors and Alexander Technique training I have been working to organize myself in a symmetrical way in sitting and then to maintain this change as I move to standing.
                          Great! I believe that something like this is necessary.. if beeing sitting because you said, some few degrees are reduced and mainteined while standing..who knows if something similar could not be done to get out from the inclined plane maintaining the reduction.. well of course is only an idea, but maybe you may evaluate it.
                          Anyway, I dont know if this exercise is part of the Alexander technique or is your idea, but is really great.. surely it must to be a good exercise..
                          Alexander is a great technique, maybe the best propioceptive technique.. although Feldenkrais was a physicist I have heard he took some sessions with Alexander.. before developing his method..
                          I'll continue

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: The Last Question

                            Quick question as an aside: how do you create those bubbles that quote what other posters have written?

                            In response to your question flerc about the mirror work I do. F. M. Alexander (who developed the Alexander Technique) used mirrors when he was first working on himself. By the time he had become a sought after teacher I don't believe that he was using mirrors much with his students (occasionally but not often). In the school where I was trained we used mirrors to help with our work from time to time but it wasn't a big part of our process.

                            So my use of mirrors is both a continuation of the original way that Alexander developed his approach, and also something new because some of the activities I do with mirrors are not part of the standard AT work. I think mirrors are a very useful tool for those of us with scoliosis. We can see in a mirror what is really happening in our posture and compare the visual reality with our proprioceptive sense of how we are.

                            Flerc also posted a question about Alexander Technique vs. Feldenkrais vs. Osteopathy vs. Structural Integration vs. Chiropractic etc. One thing I have noticed, which I think is regrettable, is that practitioners from different disciplines have a habit of criticizing each others' approach. And, unfortunately, practitioners within the same discipline criticize each other too. I would prefer not to do that, and so I tend to avoid comparing my disciplines with others.

                            I have studied a wide range of movement related disciplines, and received treatment from many different manual therapists. I wouldn't want to get into a debate over which one is better than the others, because it runs the risk of appearing disrespectful. A lot of it depends on what the individual's goals are and who they are working with. Rather I would say that Alexander Technique and Structural Integration suit my needs best.

                            Alexander Technique is my favourite way of improving my proprioception and my habits of posture and movement. Structural Integration is my favourite way of receiving help for those parts of my body that I have a hard time understanding and improving.

                            Yes, you're right: Feldenkrais did have lessons with F. M. Alexander, and actually one of my teachers, Rika Cohen has told me that Feldenkrais also had many AT lessons with her.
                            Joshua
                            Diagnosed with 42 degree thoracolumbar scoliosis in 1996
                            1997 - 45 degrees
                            2003 - 29 degrees
                            2011 - 27 degrees
                            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...osis/front.jpg
                            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...sis/Lumbar.jpg
                            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...s/Thoracic.jpg

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by TOscoliosis View Post
                              My asymmetrical muscles, some of which are overly toned and some of which have less tone than they should. Some muscles are pulled overly tight and some stretched overly long.
                              TOscoliosis, Alexander or Rolfing are usefull to increase the tone? I thought that only to decrease it.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I think it is correct to say that:

                                For an ADULT:

                                1. non-exercise-dependent correction = affecting the structural curve
                                2. non-exercise-dependent halting of progression = affecting the structural curve
                                3. exercise-dependent correction = NOT affecting the structural curve
                                4. exercise-dependent halting of progression = NOT affecting the structural curve

                                Hawes increased the distance between her spine and sternum and to the extent that is permanent (not exercise dependent), I think she permanently changed her structural curve.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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