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Another study finds assocation between HYPOkyphosis and Scoliosis

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Anterior overgrowth can't possibly be primary unless and until they can explain why the 7:1 ratio of girls to boys fits within that being a primary etiology. I don't see it. The answer has to involve the different hormone regimes or something that is different between girls and boys. Because AIS is 7:1 and JIS is 1:1, that I think is the basis to suggest they are different conditions. And that's a pretty damn good basis for suggesting they are different in my opinion.
    This is a very good point. Hormones play a HUGE impact on the body, more than most laymen can imagine. But this would indicate that sex hormones are somehow involved. I'm sure that there wouldn't be a rush of young ladies wanting to take male hormone suppliments.

    The embryos of males and females develop exactly the same until a certain stage of development when hormones kick in. It is a known fact that there are more male miscarriages than female. Also the male infant mortality rate is higher than female. Yet, with scoliosis, the females get hit the hardest. Something to think about...
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
      But kids who do various specific sports and kids who do no sports mostly still all have right thoracic curves. So the initial condition of using various muscles doesn't map to the curvature. It is not related.
      BUT... Kids that do certain sports have a higher incidence of scoliosis, for example ballet.
      Be happy!
      We don't know what tomorrow brings,
      but we are alive today!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
        BUT... Kids that do certain sports have a higher incidence of scoliosis, for example ballet.
        No this is a fundamental sampling problem. The kids who do better in a sport are more suited to it and stay longer in the sport. And it just so happens that these conditions that confer an advantage go along with scoliosis. For example, being hypermobile gives a huge advantage in certain endeavors including rhythmic gymnastics. Kids who are not hypermobile don't win as much or at all. So that sport "selects" for certain conditions. This is easy to see from the other way... it strains credulity to suggest hypermobile kids just by total chance end up over-represented in rhythmic gymnastics compared to their presence in the general public through pure chance. That's is not rational.

        Similarly, the most decorated swimmer in the world, Phelps, is being monitored for emergent Marfans. His body type confers an advantage in swimming.

        Similarly, race horses are inadvertently being selected for having fragile legs and breaking down more than in the past because this type wins most often. It is no coincidence that horses are more fragile now than in earlier periods. The racing hasn't changed so the racing itself is not causing the increased fragility. The people are simply selecting fragile horses and taking the chance that they won't break down in the hope of gaining a speed edge. It is the same thing that happens in ballet... something advantageous is selected and that something comes along with something else that is not good... scoliosis in people and fragile legs in racehorses. The thing with the racehorses is that catastrophic breakdowns in the track have become sufficiently frequent and harrowing that people are talking about it more.

        Nobody has ever suggested ballet or any sport causes structural scoliosis. It may cause functional scoliosis though. But unless it is structural, if scoliosis is over-represented in a particular sport then it is because that body type that goes along with scoliosis is favored by the sport.
        Last edited by Pooka1; 11-20-2011, 07:05 PM.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #34
          I can believe that competitive, Olympic level athletes might trigger Scoliosis because of their intense training.

          However this study of 2,387 adolescents found no connection between Scoliosis and athletics. A sample that large makes this study pretty definitive.

          Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis and Exercising: Is There Truly a Liaison?

          Methods. A group of 2387 adolescents (boys: 1177, girls: 1210, mean age: 13.4 years) was evaluated. All completed a questionnaire concerning personal, somatometric, and secondary sex characteristics, type, duration and character of daily-performed physical activities, and existing cases of AIS among relatives. Patients were classified into 2 groups according to their answers; “athletes” and “nonathletes.” The groups were comparable as far as age, height, weight, onset of menstruation, family history of scoliosis, and side of handedness were concerned. Children underwent physical examination by 3 orthopedic surgeons who were unaware of their level of athletic activities. Children considered, by all, to be suspicious of suffering from scoliosis, underwent further radiographic evaluation.
          Conclusion. Our results demonstrate that systematic exercising is probably not associated with the development of AIS. Actively participating in sports activities doesn’t seem to affect the degree of the main scoliotic curve either.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            No this is a fundamental sampling problem. The kids who do better in a sport are more suited to it and stay longer in the sport. And it just so happens that these conditions that confer an advantage go along with scoliosis. For example, being hypermobile gives a huge advantage in certain endeavors including rhythmic gymnastics. Kids who are not hypermobile don't win as much or at all. So that sport "selects" for certain conditions. This is easy to see from the other way... it strains credulity to suggest hypermobile kids just by total chance end up over-represented in rhythmic gymnastics compared to their presence in the general public through pure chance. That's is not rational.

            Similarly, the most decorate swimmer in the world, Phelps, is being monitored for emergent Marfans. His body type confers an advantage in swimming.
            This does make sense. Many scoliotics are hypermobile. But, many scoliotics are also uncoordinated, like me! But, the uncoordinated ones get selected out even if they are hypermobile. It's hard to believe that exercise could be "bad" for you. But if done unevenly or under unnatural stress I can see that it could put the body in a harmful configuration if done over extended periods of time, such as the runners with different feet that Dingo mentioned.

            They "say" that things like carrying backpacks over one shoulder, etc., etc. don't cause scoliosis (I've read that somewhere, I don't remember), but if one is of a susceptible body type, you migt think that to be possible. For example, I am right-handed. I am hyper-mobile in many joints (not hamstrings!). I was very thin and fragile as a young girl and played a very large instrument for my size (alto-saxophone). I played it for many, many years and carried it to school daily (with my right hand). My mom felt bad seeing me carrying that thing and bought a cart for me to pull it, which I also did with my right hand. I have an upper LEFT thoracic scoliosis. It "could" be theorized that over the course of the years, all of that uneven weight on my shoulder girdle (pulling my right shoulder down) could cause the scoliosis that is left facing (raising my left shoulder). That is what my mom thought of right away. The doctors assured her that this wasn't the cause, but... In support of the doctor's, if this were the case, then wearing the strap around my neck to hold up this heavy instrument should have caused my neck to become lordotic, when in fact, I have the opposite problem with my neck. Randomly thinking here. Maybe I did have a "functional" scoliosis at one point that turned structural after many years of this unusual stress.
            Last edited by rohrer01; 11-20-2011, 06:08 PM. Reason: typo
            Be happy!
            We don't know what tomorrow brings,
            but we are alive today!

            Comment


            • #36
              Learning a lot from you folks discussing. Is the following of any relevance:

              I have two x-rays A) 070711 & B) 131011. A, IMO, was taken with my daughter manipulated into her scoliotic posture. B was taken when she was 'focused' on her posture, but relaxed (e.g., not a Schroth type correction). The shoulder rotation in A shows a statistically significant increased lateral curvature in both thoracic and lumbar curves. Rotation dramatically worsens curvature. (I don't know how to upload the x-rays here, but can email them if anyone is interested.)
              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

              Comment


              • #37
                You just click on the little paper clip, like you would an e-mail, and basically follow the instructions to download them from your computer.
                Be happy!
                We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                but we are alive today!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
                  Learning a lot from you folks discussing. Is the following of any relevance:

                  I have two x-rays A) 070711 & B) 131011. A, IMO, was taken with my daughter manipulated into her scoliotic posture. B was taken when she was 'focused' on her posture, but relaxed (e.g., not a Schroth type correction). The shoulder rotation in A shows a statistically significant increased lateral curvature in both thoracic and lumbar curves. Rotation dramatically worsens curvature. (I don't know how to upload the x-rays here, but can email them if anyone is interested.)
                  I always hated it when they forced me to stand in an unnatural way during x-rays. I refuse to do it now. But, I am much older and wiser. ;-)
                  Be happy!
                  We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                  but we are alive today!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
                    Learning a lot from you folks discussing. Is the following of any relevance:

                    I have two x-rays A) 070711 & B) 131011. A, IMO, was taken with my daughter manipulated into her scoliotic posture. B was taken when she was 'focused' on her posture, but relaxed (e.g., not a Schroth type correction). The shoulder rotation in A shows a statistically significant increased lateral curvature in both thoracic and lumbar curves. Rotation dramatically worsens curvature. (I don't know how to upload the x-rays here, but can email them if anyone is interested.)
                    I have no idea.

                    I do know for a fact that lateral curvature and rotation are not tightly coupled and you can have a wide range in rotation with a given Cobb angle. At fusion, both my daughters had about the same curve, Thing 1 had a 58* and Thing 2 had a 57*. But Thing 1 was extremely rotated and it was obvious to lay folks something was radically wrong. Thing 2 had no visible rotation standing up. The only way even I could tell she had a high angle curve is to ask her to stand relaxed facing me and drop her arms by her sides. One arm was somewhat closer to her body than the other. That's it. That difference was due to the different amounts of rotation even with the same Cobb angle.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                      I always hated it when they forced me to stand in an unnatural way during x-rays. I refuse to do it now. But, I am much older and wiser. ;-)
                      Okay I just asked one of my kids who happened to be here. The technician at NO POINT asked her to do anything but stand in front of the beam. The only positioning she did was to make sure she was in front of the beam. There was no manipulation of shoulders, hips, whatever. I can't even imagine what they would ask a patient to do OTHER than to stand in front of the beam.

                      I watched the post-op radiographs on Day 4 for each kid because I was living at the hospital. There was NO manipulation whatsoever other than to get the kid to stand in front of the beam.

                      I am flabbergasted at the notion that a technician would manipulate a patient for a scoliosis film. They are lay people essentially when it comes to that. We know from the Spinecor literature that you can get at least an 11* difference in Cobb angle just by being manipulated. This seems like a HUGE source of error if manipulation occurs.
                      Last edited by Pooka1; 11-20-2011, 06:59 PM.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                        Okay I just asked one of my kids who happened to be here. The technician at NO POINT asked her to do anything but stand in front of the beam. The only positioning she did was to make sure she was in front of the beam. There was no manipulation of shoulders, hips, whatever. I can't even imagine what they would ask a patient to do OTHER than to stand in front of the beam.

                        I watched the post-op radiographs on Day 4 for each kid because I was living at the hospital. There was NO manipulation whatsoever other than to get the kid to stand in front of the beam.

                        I am flabbergasted at the notion that a technician would manipulate a patient for a scoliosis film. They are lay people essentially when it comes to that. We know from the Spinecor literature that you can get at least an 11* difference in Cobb angle just but being manipulated. This seems like a HUGE source of error if manipulation occurs.
                        They always did it with me. They would twist my hips to try to make them "not twisted". They would twist my shoulders to make them "not twisted". Some would try to push my elevated shoulder down. It was unreal. Now if anyone tries to do that, I tell them, "I have scoliosis and I can't stand that way." Then they leave me alone.
                        Be happy!
                        We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                        but we are alive today!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I was present during my son's pre-surgery x rays and the tech did not even touch him, just made him stand and took pics. I wonder if it's an older generation thing where they 'made' you stand straight?
                          Son 14 y/o diagnosed January 20th. 2011 with 110* Curve
                          Halo Traction & 1st. surgery on March 22nd. 2011
                          Spinal Fusion on April 19th. 2011

                          Dr. Krajbich @ Shriners Childrens Hospital, Portland Oregon



                          http://tinyurl.com/Elias-Before
                          http://tinyurl.com/Elias-After

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                          • #43
                            Even this disparate experiences in these few posts indicate an incredibly unscientific approach to a foundation stone of diagnoses. Decisions are made based on these 'random' x-rays (e.g., my daughter stuffed into a brace made for someone with entirely different curves, hip height, etc.
                            PS: I've now had 4 different measurements of the curves: T curve ranges through 44, 40 36 and 32; L curve ranges through 42, 37, 28 and 27; these measurement were taken by two surgeons and two orthotists. FWIW, I measured the latest x-rays and 35 and 27.
                            Trying to upload the comparative x-ray photo now...

                            Comparative curves photo
                            0707 to 1310.jpg
                            Last edited by TAMZTOM; 11-20-2011, 08:03 PM.
                            07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                            11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                            05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                            12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                            05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                            Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                              I can't even imagine what they would ask a patient to do OTHER than to stand in front of the beam.

                              At our second hospital, even bracing kids requires some parental persuasion. Now a Sheffield Childrens hospital, everything have been professional and to my approval.

                              I am flabbergasted at the notion that a technician would manipulate a patient for a scoliosis film. They are lay people essentially when it comes to that. We know from the Spinecor literature that you can get at least an 11* difference in Cobb angle just by being manipulated. This seems like a HUGE source of error if manipulation occurs.
                              Glad to hear it, I'll be arguing it.
                              Thanks
                              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                In my opinion, there is only so much variance you can get when selecting the same end vertebrae and carefully drawing the lines. Large spreads between measurements on the same films by different people are more likely due to selection of different end vertebrae. Although it wouldn't seem so, I do think end vertebrae might be something on which reasonable people can disagree. It is the angle between the most tilted vertebrae FULL STOP.

                                The only way to go forward is to pick the most experienced orthopedic spine guy and have him measure ALL radiographs. The absolute number matters not as much as any change over time.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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