someone has winged scapula?

[Karen Ocker]

winged scapula

When there is a hump in the high thoracic region-from scoliosis-, under the scapula, a "winged scapular" results.

[flerc]

Thanks Karen, may be you are right, it takes sense thinking in the convex side of the curve. But why other winged scapular in the concave side too?. Winged scapulars disappears after fusion? If not, other should to be the reason.
I think they are the symptom of some kind of weakness, that sometimes leads to scoliosis.
I think is a fact that winged scapulars exists in every collapsed pneumatic skeleton (as occurs in kids with CP). So is logic to think that this collapse might to be the cause of scoliosis, but ABR people seems to be the only ones in the world knowing about this.
It seems for me to be a taboo issue for any other professionals.

Regards

[txmarinemom]

Just tossing this in the mix ...

A weak anterior serratus muscle (or damaged long thoracic nerve) can also allow the scapula to wing - scoliosis or no scoliosis. If your physician okays it, there are exercises to do that can help stabilize the scapula.

[flerc]

Thanx txmarinemon, strengthen the serratus might stabilize the scapula, but I'm not sure if it could help more for an cosmetic issue. I'm absolutely sure she has the pneumatic skeleton collapsed. The distance between your chest and back is minimal, I think is a half it should to be.
I think ABR people should to be right.

[txmarinemom]

'm absolutely sure she has the pneumatic skeleton collapsed.

How are you "absolutely sure"?

[flerc]

How are you "absolutely sure"?

Abr people told me about some signs of this as winged scapulas, clavicles inclined and other ones I don't remember now. But the main sign for me is the reduced volume I see in my daughter.

[txmarinemom]

Abr people told me about some signs of this as winged scapulas, clavicles inclined and other ones I don't remember now. But the main sign for me is the reduced volume I see in my daughter.

flerc,

How do you gauge "reduced volume"?

[flerc]

In fact I don't measured it, I only observed it. It's quite evident it's lesser the volume of her friends of same age, height and no much more weight (she is thin)

[txmarinemom]

In fact I don't measured it, I only observed it. It's quite evident it's lesser the volume of her friends of same age, height and no much more weight (she is thin)

flerc,

Has any doctor - of any type - supported your observation? Does your daughter observe the same?

How have you compared her to her peers?

[flerc]

How have you compared her to her peers?

Yes, her friends. I think is great the difference.
I think the doctor said us the same in other words, when she put her fingers behind the scapulas of my daughter and then showed how impossible is to do the same with me. She told about muscular weakness but she also said something like my back is much denser, compact, robust..

[txmarinemom]

Yes, her friends. I think is great the difference.
I think the doctor said us the same in other words, when she put her fingers behind the scapulas of my daughter and then showed how impossible is to do the same with me. She told about muscular weakness but she also said something like my back is much denser, compact, robust..

Okay ... so what I'm asking now is how did you make the jump from "muscular weakness" to "pneumatic skeleton collapsed"?

I think what concerns me most is your previous post:

"Abr people says that is a symptom of a collapsed pneumatic skeleton. I think is always present in children with cerebral paralysis. "

Who *are* the "Abr" people? Yes, I've seen their website. Do you realize they have no documented experience with scoliosis?

Does your daughter has Cerebral Palsy? If so, I missed that - but I'm trying to understand.

Pam

[flerc]

Pam, my daughter has not CP. I decided to suspend a muscular therapy of this doctor, but I’m really so worry for what she said about the muscular weakness. I think she talk about muscular weakness, because nobody manages the concept of pneumatic skeleton, just only Abr people.
They have groups around the world in many countries. Argentina is one of them.
As I said to Sahron http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...106#post101106
I know that people, I assist to conferences.. I can not doubt about what they do even I can not be sure if it could works in an idiopathic scoliosis.
But I think it should to works too. How much, I don’t know. They say that a cerebral event triggers in kids with CP the beginning of the collapse of the pneumatic skeleton (PS ). This collapse progress, leading in many cases to the death. Abr seems to be the only one choice, at least in so many cases. So many parents said this to me.
Abr people says that the collapse of the PS is the cause of scoliosis also in idiopathic ones. The fact is that kids with the most terrible collapse of the PS that can be imagined, improve it and the scoliosis too. So, I think is logic to suppose that it can improve the PS in idiopathic too, and therefore the curve.
I think that regardless good intentions, every therapy is a business. Business has her own rules. It would be so reasonable that some kind of business be focused in same kind of target market. In the case of ABR this is the kids with CP, not with scoliosis.
But also may be they only can restore the PS of PC kids. So, as I said to Sharon, Schroth, SEAS or RPG could be unuseful therapies, but we can not forget muscles. So, we can not forget PS.
It would not be the first time I see a concept only knowed by the founders of some discipline. I think it also occurs with muscular chains and Mezieres.

[Pooka1]

Yes, her friends. I think is great the difference.
I think the doctor said us the same in other words, when she put her fingers behind the scapulas of my daughter and then showed how impossible is to do the same with me. She told about muscular weakness but she also said something like my back is much denser, compact, robust..

Fer, there are any number of legitimate medical conditions for ALL you daughter's symptoms... thin body, low muscle tone, loose joints, etc. that I don't know why you leave the world of medicine for an answer that isn't scientific. They have many possible answers for this set of symptoms. My daughters fit that set and they are hypermobile with a possibility they might have emergent Marfans. No need to talk about pneumatic skeleton collapse to know what's going on here.

[flerc]

Sharon, may be you are right, I don’t know. In my country is difficult to do tests, because we need the order of a doctor. Surgeons refuse the idea she could has Marfan, so is so difficult for me to get this order, buy I’m trying. I’ll prove with rheumatologists too.
She is thin, it’s a sign of Marfan, but I know other thin kids, I remember how much thin I was, but my back was never sunken as my daughter. This is a so significant feature for me. Other sign of Marfan seems to be neumotorax. This could explain what I see, but it must to be detected in x-ray as I knows.
Any way I think this collapse should to be reduced. I believe if she would have a much more robust back, her scoliosis would improve. I don’t know if she could reduce degrees, but I really believe the risk of progression would be reduced.
I don’t know all the factors determining the thickness of the back, (the distance between back and chest). Surely lungs and other organs, connective tissues as fascias.. all conforming the pneumatic skeleton. I don’t know how to reduce so great collapse.
Someone should to know. I’m not sure the only way could be a special stimulus to the smooth muscles, even maybe the only way in kids with CP..
The physio don’t agree with swimming but we’ll begin tomorrow any way. I can not imagine any more.

Gracias por los consejos y por escuchar.

[flerc]

Rib cage

I don’t know how frequent are, but I think that there are different kinds of IS with different etiologies. I believe that in one of those etiologies, the winged scapulas are the outcome of a thin thorax in the sagittal plane, with the hollow back, as the first photo http://www.efisioterapia.net/articul...p?id_texto=329

I believe that in that kind of back, is inevitable this kind of scapulas, because there are not nothing between them. Surely ABR would be at least one of the best therapies that could be performed. No any doubt about a collapsed Pneumatic skeleton. But what could happen if we expand the rib cage? I believe that this hole between the scapulas should to be filled in some way, the PS would not be so collapsed.

Physicians say that strong back muscles are needed to stabilize the curve, so swimming is the best that we can do. (good luck in other words)
I had to realize by myself that strong muscles have very little to do for that purpose (maybe except the related with rotation) but in some sense, physicians are right, but not because what they say. Swimming is good to expand the rib cage, but how so much? And we cannot forget the risks. I think this exercise is more effective in order to expand the rib cage and I think that not have any risk, at least in a flexible spine http://foro.eliteculturismo.com/encu...-verdad-18609/ It seems that is used to correct the pectus excavatum http://www.pectusinfo.com/board/file...d=8289&aid=198

But again the limitations in adult age seem to arise. Ribs don’t grow any more so it takes sense to say that is not possible to expand the rib cage. But what about the sternum? I’m almost sure my height is the same that when I was 17 years old. But after 2 years of a hard practice of boxing, my rib cage had a very significant growth, and I expended so many hours all weeks with an exercise very similar.

Again is all a matter of Riser? It’s difficult for me to believe that.