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Thread: Dystonia is the historical/current cause?

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    Dystonia is the historical/current cause?


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    Thanks for posting this. I'm impressed that you are looking into a variety of research topics.

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    Wow!. That's an interesting study. Their results are pretty amazing. I don't know a bunch about MEP or what the delayed onset might mean but their statistical significance is fairly convincing.

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    Dystonia

    Skevimc

    I've got a short question.

    From the study:
    A defective sensory input or an anomalous sensorimotor integration may lead to an abnormal postural tone and therefore the development of a spine deformity.
    Is that shorthand for strength asymmetry? If so I'm going to do a cartwheel in front of my desk.

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    Dystonia

    This is from the study
    The aetiology of idiopathic scoliosis (IS) remains unknown; however, there is a growing body of evidence suggesting that the spine deformity could be the expression of a subclinical nervous system disorder.
    Therefore, the study of cortico-cortical inhibition may shed some insight into the dystonia hypothesis regarding the pathophysiology of IS.
    Time to hit Google...

    Wiki: Dystonia
    Dystonia is a neurological movement disorder, in which sustained muscle contractions cause twisting and repetitive movements or abnormal postures.
    Wiktionary: Subclinical
    Of a disease or injury, without signs and symptoms that are detectable by physical examination or laboratory test; not clinically manifest.
    So essentially they are speculating that AIS is triggered by a type of Dystonia that has no obvious symptoms.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-06-2010 at 04:22 PM.

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    Dystonia in Europe

    A prevalence study of primary dystonia in eight European countries

    Abstract There have been few epidemiological studies of dystonia. Most previous studies have provided estimates based on few cases. A European prevalence study was undertaken to provide more precise rates of dystonia by pooling data from eight European countries. Diagnosed cases were ascertained by adult neurologists with specialist movement disorders (and botulinum toxin) clinics. The crude annual period prevalence rate (1996–1997) for primary dystonia was 152 per million (95% confidence interval 142–162), with focal dystonia having the highest rate of 117 per million (108–126). Prevalence rates for cervical dystonia, blepharospasm and writer's cramp were as follows: 57 (95% confidence interval 51–63), 36 (31–41), and 14 (11–17). The age-adjusted relative rates were significantly higher in women than in men for segmental and focus dystonias with the exception of writer's cramp. Comparing rates between centres demonstrated significant variations for cervical dystonia, blepharospasm and writer's cramp, probably due to methodological differences. Our results provide the first data on the prevalence of primary dystonia and its subtypes across several European countries. Due to under-ascertainment of cases, our rates should be seen as conservative and an under-estimate of the true prevalence of dystonia.
    Like most genetic diseases that hit children and young people Primary (clinical) Dystonia is a rare condition. It appears to be caused by a mutated version of the gene called DYT1.

    Dystonias Caused by DYT1 Gene Mutation
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-06-2010 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Is that shorthand for strength asymmetry? If so I'm going to do a cartwheel in front of my desk.
    As I read it, no. Abnormal postural tone is more likely referencing altered muscle patterns to maintain posture. As you stand or sit, there is a certain amount of muscle activity that occurs in order to maintain an upright posture. Those patterns of muscle action are responding to what the brain is sensing through the vestibular system. From there, the motor system receives the input and makes corrections or maintains based on what the brain/person wants to do. (Interesting side note: a slow roll of about 1 degree every five minutes, I think, is not perceptible by the brain. This is how it is thought that John F Kennedy Jr lost control of his airplane. You gradually roll over and when you lose lift you pull up to try and correct and because you're angled over it pulls you in to a spiral)

    So I think the paper is suggesting that something gets in the way from the sensing to the motor pathways. This could/would result in abnormal muscle firing patterns to maintain posture. This doesn't necessarily suggest anything about strength.

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    Dystonia in the news

    I knew I had heard the word Dystonia before.

    This story was from a few months ago.
    YouTube: Beautiful Cheerleader Develops Dystonia After Receiving Vaccine
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-06-2010 at 10:59 PM.

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    very interesting

    Skevimc

    This could/would result in abnormal muscle firing patterns to maintain posture.
    Very interesting. I wonder if when the body is out of balance certain muscles have to work harder (if only slightly) to keep the body upright. Maybe those muscles would grow stronger over time. If I lean a few degrees to the right or left I can feel my muscles start to work.

    Ya know what's interesting is that inspite of the fact that my son has a nervous system disorder that impacts his balance you'd never know it from the way he plays. He was born a natural athelete unlike his father.

    Here he is at 22 months old, unable to talk and yet and he can already hit a baseball.

    Video: Scott, 22 months old playing T-Ball
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-07-2010 at 10:02 AM.

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    interesting observation from long ago

    Skevimc

    You might find this observation interesting.

    The 19th Century Debate on Clothing as a Cause of Scoliosis

    Lewis A. Sayre, an orthopedist, studied patients from upper and lower socioeconomic levels. He found that abnormal spinal development was not often seen in girls from lower income families. These girls did not wear corsets; instead, they carried bundles on their heads, which forced them to stand very straight. This balancing act, Sayre concluded, helped these girls develop healthy spines.
    I assume this behavior made the back stronger and more symmetrical. It reminded me of TRS.

    Lewis A. Sayre: The First Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery in America

    Lewis Albert Sayre (1820–1900) is considered to be among the founding fathers of orthopaedic surgery in the United States. He studied medicine at the College of Physicians and Surgeons (now of Columbia University). Sayre later helped establish the first academic department of orthopaedics at the Bellevue Medical College where he served as their first Professor of Orthopaedics. Lewis Sayre treated a considerable diversity of musculoskeletal conditions and meticulously documented them with written notes, sketches, and photographs. As a public figure, his methods were controversial, attracting praise by some and inviting criticism by other prominent members of the international community. He made great strides for physicians, helping to charter the American Medical Association and to establish the weekly publication of the Journal of the American Medical Association.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-07-2010 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Skevimc

    You might find this observation interesting.

    The 19th Century Debate on Clothing as a Cause of Scoliosis
    Lewis A. Sayre, an orthopedist, studied patients from upper and lower socioeconomic levels. He found that abnormal spinal development was not often seen in girls from lower income families. These girls did not wear corsets; instead, they carried bundles on their heads, which forced them to stand very straight. This balancing act, Sayre concluded, helped these girls develop healthy spines.


    I assume this behavior made the back stronger and more symmetrical. It reminded me or TRS.

    Lewis A. Sayre: The First Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery in America
    I thought something similar when I saw my daughter walking straight carrying her school back over her shoulders. She makes an unrotatory exercise stretching her spine. I always wanted to say him to do it with some weight over her shoulders too, but I was afraid to do something by myself, never proved before. It seems logic that if gravity force is the worse for scoliosis, muscles should to be trained to fight against it.. now I don't know what to do.

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    My mother had four daughters and had us all walking around with stacks of books on our heads so that we would have good posture. I remember the sessions well. Needless to say, it did not prevent me from getting scoliosis, BUT my scoliosis is SO symmetrical that it went unnoticed. You can still look at me and not know I have scoliosis. Still, when I find myself tipping in one direction, I automatically straighten myself up to "appear" straight. You would think that this could be detrimental to the progression of the curves. Just my two cents.

    As far as strength asymmetry, I would suppose that if there were nerve impulse asymmetry to the muscles, that may LEAD to strength asymmetry. If one muscle group fires more than another, it would in essence be getting more "excercise" and become stronger (like the electrostimulators that I was subjected to as a teen). It seems that these studies at least are helping us to understand the mechanics behind the disease. If muscle dystonia is truly related to scoliosis, that would explain the excruciating muscle spasms that many of us get. Mine started at age 8. I would stretch them out in the morning and never told anyone. I thought it was normal growth pain.

    After reading what you all have posted and, admittedly not doing any research on my own for lack of time, I'm leaning toward the dystonia hypothesis. The reason being is that the muscle spasms are contracted muscles (redundant, I know), but that is what we are trying to achieve in isometric exercises (not the spasm part - but holding a muscle in a contracted state). The end result that we are trying to achieve is a larger, stronger muscle. I'm just thinking about this one. Thanks everyone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Skevimc

    You might find this observation interesting.
    Yep, I'm familiar with the Sayre article/book. I used it and a couple of others from the same period in the introduction of my dissertation. The debate between brace and exercise has been going on for over 150 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    My mother had four daughters and had us all walking around with stacks of books on our heads so that we would have good posture. I remember the sessions well. Needless to say, it did not prevent me from getting scoliosis, BUT my scoliosis is SO symmetrical that it went unnoticed. You can still look at me and not know I have scoliosis. Still, when I find myself tipping in one direction, I automatically straighten myself up to "appear" straight. You would think that this could be detrimental to the progression of the curves. Just my two cents.
    This is part of the success rate for Schroth exercises and H. Weiss' studies. In a few of the studies some of the patients' curves don't improve but their posture improves. So it improves the cosmetic appearance which is fairly high on the list of complaints. (Note: not necessarily a plug for Schroth exercises. Just making a statement)

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post

    After reading what you all have posted and, admittedly not doing any research on my own for lack of time, I'm leaning toward the dystonia hypothesis. The reason being is that the muscle spasms are contracted muscles (redundant, I know), but that is what we are trying to achieve in isometric exercises (not the spasm part - but holding a muscle in a contracted state). The end result that we are trying to achieve is a larger, stronger muscle. I'm just thinking about this one. Thanks everyone!

    That's an interesting observation/insight into what you dealt with as a kid. I wonder how common that is?

    Whether the muscles play a role in the pathogenesis of AIS or not is a great question. In my thought process, scoliosis isn't necessarily the problem, it's the progression that'll get you. I have little doubt that the muscles play a major role in the progression. The muscles are the only thing keeping any of us upright. If just one fails, things start adapting. In some joints/movements, there is one muscle for one movement. The fingers and some facial movements for example. In other joints/movements there is muscular redundancy. The back is full of that. Several muscles cross over several different vertebral levels and can act in any number of patterns to extend, flex, rotate, bend, etc.... You get the idea. Redundancy can be good if one muscle begins to 'malfunction' because the body can continue to operate in a basically normal way, however, that muscle also has a real purpose. It's not just extra tissue our body decided to create. If the malfunctioning muscle wakes back up then the body never realizes anything was wrong. But if that were to happen chronically or with more than one muscle and the body compensated by using other muscle patterns, that redundancy could actually allow/cause the malfunctioning muscles to continue to malfunction, i.e. get weaker. Kind of like when you limp around on a sprained ankle. It's not good because after the acute injury phase you need to slowly begin using those injured muscles or else your biomechanics are thrown off. It could be the same in the back. But since there is no obvious injury and no obvious pain, there's never any thought about the muscles that aren't working properly. But perhaps muscle spasms are a little sign.

    Just thinking 'out loud'... You seem like/are a sciency guy and even though you didn't really ask the question that I just answered, I just started typing and, well... that's the result.
    Last edited by skevimc; 05-07-2010 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    Just thinking 'out loud'... You seem like/are a sciency guy and even though you didn't really ask the question that I just answered, I just started typing and, well... that's the result.
    Bingo. Rohrer01 has science training.

    I also guessed that correctly from Rohrer01 posts so it really comes through.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    Many kids have muscle pain/spasms

    Rohrer01

    If muscle dystonia is truly related to scoliosis, that would explain the excruciating muscle spasms that many of us get. Mine started at age 8. I would stretch them out in the morning and never told anyone. I thought it was normal growth pain.
    That's an interesting observation because several mom's on this board have reported the exact same thing. Turtlelover's daughter has muscle spasms and pain in her back and her curve is only around 10 degrees. She said that TRS significantly reduced the pain. However if she stops for a week the pain gradually comes back.

    That story or any other similar story didn't make any sense to me until now.

    Wow Dystonia.... hmmm....
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-07-2010 at 11:19 PM.

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