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Thread: A few comments on trunk rotational strength training

  1. #61
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    doctor's opinion

    Mamamax

    You have a great doctor - wonder what he would say?
    To the best of my knowledge my son goes to the best Scoliosis specialist in Phoenix. After his diagnosis I asked him if exercise would help. He shook his head and told me that exercise wouldn't help. I like his doctor a lot but since we don't agree on exercise I don't bring it up.

    Skevimc

    A 35* curve with 5* rotation looks much different than the same size curve but 15* of rotation.
    You are sure right on that one. My son has a small, 10 degree curve but a significant rotation. His rotation has never been measured but I can see his rib hump through all but the thickest of shirts. If it wasn't for the rotation his Scoliosis wouldn't even be visible. Scott is 6 years, 4 months old. I'm counting the months down until he turns 8. At that point we'll be on a road trip to Los Angeles to see if he fits in a MedX.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-02-2010 at 08:55 AM.

  2. #62
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    chest exercise

    Skevimc

    I wonder if you have an opinion on this. Braces work by applying a force to the ribs which in turn push and rotate the spine into place. Does this suggest that increasing strength in the chest could potentially help stabilize the spine?

    I guess what I'm asking is does the chest provide a counterforce to help the spine stay in alignment?

  3. #63
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    Ive never mentioned this here but I think that I will chime in with something important.

    Back in 1971 when I was 13, the freestyle skiing craze was taking off and I was definitely interested. One thing that was really neat back then was the "helicopter" which is a jump with a 360 degree spin while skiing forward.

    I asked one of the old pros how to learn to do it, and he told me that in order to do a helicopter, you have to be able to do these on the lawn in your backyard with your ski gear on. So, after about 10000 attempts, of bending down clockwise, and counter-rotating, counter-clockwise and jumping up, I finally figured it out. It takes a lot of force to be able to do this, and was able to perform a helicopter on the lawn with full ski gear on, and complete a full circle. 190cm skis, jumping up about 2 inches.

    I have no idea how this affected my scoliosis, it happened before I was diagnosed at age 15.

    You might say that was an "extreme example" of trunk rotational strength training. Ski poles also helped with the process.

    I have always felt better skiing, as it builds up quite a few muscles....
    Im sure all my hard crashes jumping didn’t help through the years.

    In my later years, I skied with various braces. The abdominal support forced the rib cage upwards, and was of value. My surgeon commented on my physique, and told me that my surgery would work well due to the shape that I was in.
    Ed
    Last edited by titaniumed; 02-02-2010 at 01:30 PM.
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Skevimc

    I wonder if you have an opinion on this. Braces work by applying a force to the ribs which in turn push and rotate the spine into place. Does this suggest that increasing strength in the chest could potentially help stabilize the spine?

    I guess what I'm asking is does the chest provide a counterforce to help the spine stay in alignment?
    The ribcage and sternum are both prime candidates for affecting the spine. The leverage the ribs would be able to exert on the vertebrae could be significant. But how to harness that power?

    Two types of muscles (excluding the paraspinals) are over the rib cage. The prime movers such as pecs, lats, rhomboids, int. & ext. obliques, etc... And the intercostals, the muscles in between the ribs that assist with breathing.

    I think that any muscles have the potential to 'help' stabilize in some way. Breathing therapy is based, in part, on strengthening the intercostals. Strengthening the pecs, which insert on the sternum could, in theory, apply force to the spine via the ribs. I'm just now reminded about a fine wire EMG study done on the intercostals a while back. It found that the intercostals on the concave side (I think) weren't firing. However, this was done in polio patients I believe.

    Here it is. Horn, CV. Electromyographic investigation of muscle imbalance in patients with paralytic scoliosis. 1969. PMID 5385060

  5. #65
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    Another thing I forgot to mention is that when skiing hard at very high altitudes, breathing hard is something that seems to happen very often!

    I also agree that muscles help stabilize. I have felt it, for years.
    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  6. #66
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    I think the same is true for riding and specifically dressage. It's all core... the rest is commentary.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #67
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    Dingo-

    Maybe it is listed somewhere else in this board but can you describe the modified rotation exercise you have your son do?

    I used to use one of the oblique machines at the gym and would focus on keeping my back straight (ie "suck in" pull the muscles so that I appeared straight and then very slowly do the exercise) my curve did not get worse and I actually felt and looked better. I unfortuenatly do not have access to that type of machine and would like to modify some of the exercises I used to do at the gym at home.

    Thank you!

  8. #68
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    For Dingo, MedX info

    Well Dingo, you'll be so diasppointed, but the MedX torso rotation machine at our gym does not even come close to fitting Leah, and she is a sl. taller than average girl. It does not have any ability to adjust the height of the seat. She would need to sit on her car booster! Also, her legs are way to short, even with the leg pieces adjusted as close as possible. It is not possible for her to anchor her pelvis and do the exercise. Not sure how the little girl in the video was able to fit in the machine. The personal trainer did tell me this machine is an older version, so maybe the new ones can be adjusted to fit a kid.

    Oh well, at least we tried. It's doing great in exercising my torso.
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  9. #69
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    Scott's exercise

    trcylynn

    Because Scott is too young and uncoordinated to do the real thing we do a lying down version of torso rotation.

    Here is a video of it.

    Video: Scott lying rotation

    In this demonstration video he uses a 1 pound weight. Normally he uses a 5 pound weight and I sit close and hold his shoulders to keep his form solid. He rotates about 45 degrees in each direction which is roughly the same distance they used in the studies (36 degrees).

    One thing we've added since this video was taken is ankle weights. We velcro them together and lay them over his lower stomach. This helps keep his bottom flat against the ground.

    Scott weighs 40 pounds and 5 pounds is the highest weight he can do with good form and without struggle. He does 3 sets of 20 reps, 3 mornings per week. Maybe in a few more months we'll move up to 6 pounds.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-09-2010 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #70
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    GAAAAAAAaaaaaaah.......

    Leahdragonfly

    The personal trainer did tell me this machine is an older version, so maybe the new ones can be adjusted to fit a kid.
    That is awful news!

    You could always try the "at home" exercise from Dr. McIntire's 2008 study. It's the exact same movement as the MedX but you use a chair and an exercise band.

    Treatment of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis With Quantified Trunk Rotational Strength Training: A Pilot Study
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-09-2010 at 09:43 PM.

  11. #71
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    Cybex

    We are using a Cybex Machine vintage 'Galileo'. The height adjusts on the seat, theoretically it would be easy to modify the machine to accept a smaller body with a thicker pad. It doesn't lock your pelvis, but what we do is I keep my hands in front of her knees so they can't slide forward.

    Also with regard to discussion about Psoas... The Cybex machine encourages the operator to clamp their legs to the pad in front. Squeezing your legs together like that, would I think, activate the Psoas. Bonus.

    The Med X is a great machine, but it has a huge footprint and weighs a lot. Not many homes have room for it...

    Margaret has been on "vacation from her machine" for 2 stints since we had started torso rotation therapy for her back. Both times she complained of pain after a week of not exercising. The first time it caught me off guard. I had not planned an alternative exercise regimen. The second time we used a ball, weights and a theraband. There is NO comparison between the machine and alternatives.

    Just my 2 cents. Cybex is working for us.
    Last edited by turtlelover; 02-09-2010 at 09:08 AM. Reason: missing word

  12. #72
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    Cybex

    Turtlelover

    Didn't your machine cost just a couple of hundred bucks plus shipping?

    I should add that your daughter's continued improvement helps me sleep at night.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post

    You could always try the "at home" exercise from Scott McIntire's 2008 study. It's the exact same movement as the MedX but you use a chair and an exercise band.
    My first name is Kevin. Scott is my uncle.

  14. #74
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    Cybex

    I found it for $500 and had it shipped U Ship for $200 from central Florida to Eastern North Carolina.

    Kevin, do you have any thoughts in comparing the two machines?

    Thank you Dingo, about Margaret. And thank you Dr. Kevin. If Dingo hadn't pointed me in the direction of your work and papers, Margaret would likely have continued to progress. I owe you guys a lot.
    Last edited by turtlelover; 02-09-2010 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Missed a thank you

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlelover View Post

    Kevin, do you have any thoughts in comparing the two machines?
    I like both machines. The Med-X is nice because of the lower body stabilization and weight increments of two pounds. But the Cybex is a nice machine and I actually prefer to workout on the Cybex when/if I do rotations. I agree that using the thighs to squeeze feels like a good addition. The Cybex just feels better to me... It's a personal preference.

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