A few comments on trunk rotational strength training

[Pooka1]

You are trying to argue that "all" does not mean "all." You will never succeed at this hopeless endeavor.

[mamamax]

Yes they are. Here is a direct quote:


AVOID ALL ROTATIONS OF THE SHOULDER GIRDLE AND RIB CAGE AGAINST THE PELVIC GIRDLE
(emphasis added to draw your attention to the relevant word)

I think that is taking one sentence out of context - and not applying it to the entire article.

[Pooka1]

I think that is taking one sentence out of context - and not applying it to the entire article.

I posted the ENTIRE context in one of the posts. Even if I failed to do that (which I didn't), point to where the context was needed to interpret "all."

Why are you avoiding the obvious? What's the problem with accepting that Schroth and Torso Rotation are at complete odds? Why is that impossible for you to accept? I don't get it.

[mamamax]

Why are you avoiding the obvious? What's the problem with accepting that Schroth and Torso Rotation are at complete odds? Why is that impossible for you to accept? I don't get it.

They site an example of what they are talking about. The example is: of a long sweeping rotation. That is what they are talking about.

An exaggerated movement.

That's how I read it anyway - and it makes sense to me, especially in light of what my surgeon also discussed with me.

Would be nice if we could get a Physical Therapist to comment on this.

[Pooka1]

They site an example of what they are talking about. The example is: of a long sweeping rotation. That is what they are talking about.

An exaggerated movement.

That's how I read it anyway - and it makes sense to me, especially in light of what my surgeon also discussed with me.

Would be nice if we could get a Physical Therapist to comment on this.

It's important to read what is actually there. They said "ALL." Perhaps we can agree that "all" includes "short," yes?

There is no difference whatsoever between the examples cites, the pictures shown, and torso rotation in a med-ex machine. The common denominator is opposite movement of the shoulders with respect to the pelvis about a central vertical axis.

As with everything, boil it down. We could cut out 90% of our less productive exchanges if you would do this one thing.

[mamamax]

It's important to read what is actually there. They said "ALL." Perhaps we can agree that "all" includes "short," yes?

There is no difference whatsoever between the examples cites, the pictures shown, and torso rotation in a med-ex machine. The common denominator is opposite movement of the shoulders with respect to the pelvis about a central axis.

As with everything, boil it down. We could cut out 90% of our less productive exchanges if you would do this one thing.

Yes - we would hardly exchange any ideas if we both saw things the same way

The word ALL bty - appears as an instruction regarding which yoga poses not to do.

You see no difference between the yoga pose and the MedX rotation?

I do. One (yoga) is an exaggeration of the movement and the other (MedX) is not an exaggerated movement.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one and hope that someone with more knowledge than either of us (like a Physical Therapist) stops by to make more sense of it all.

[Pooka1]

You see no difference between the yoga pose and the MedX rotation?

No.

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[mamamax]

Do the yoga pose.

Then sit in a chair and rotate the torso say 1 to 2 inches back and forth in either direction.

big difference.

[Pooka1]

Then sit in a chair and rotate the torso say 1 to 2 inches back and forth in either direction.

This description does not match what what little girl on the video was doing AT ALL. Is the girl on the video doing "torso rotation?"

I suggest NOBODY who is doing torso rotation would consider "1 to 2 inches back and forth in either direction" to be torso rotation PT.

[mamamax]

1-2" rotations could be considered a rotational exercise, especially in a rehabilitation situation.

The little girl in the video is doing more than that: http://www.wcsh6.com/news/health/sto...=92954&catid=8

And far less (as I see it) than in the yoga pose.

[Pooka1]

[COLOR="Navy"]1-2" rotations could be considered a rotational exercise, especially in a rehabilitation situation.

I doubt that and anyway the context of our discussion is torso rotation PT for scoliosis. Schroth says no and torso rotationists() say YES. Someone is wrong as a metaphysical certainty. I am further suggesting no one in that field would include 1 to 2 inches of twist to be torso rotation PT for scoliosis.

And far less (as I see it) than in the yoga pose.

She appears to be twisting about as much as the yoga photos to me. Anyway she's doing far more than 1-2 inches.

[leahdragonfly]

MedX torso rotation--more than a few inches!

I have only been loosely following this thread, but I want to shed some light on the above argument by clarifying the MedX exercise above with some facts.

I swim regularly at an athletic club, and I recently decided to add in some weight training on resistance machines. I received an hour of training on the proper use of the machines with a personal trainer last week. Just so happens my club has a MedX Rotary Torso Machine. It says right on it in large letters, and I was also told by the trainer, that "the largest range of motion that doesn't result in pain" is the recommended method of performing the exercise. When I was shown the exercise, it was demonstrated to sit with one's hips and knees pointing straight forward, and the starting position is with the shoulders and torso facing 90 degrees to (whichever) side, then making what I would call large sweeping motions to the 90-degree position (in the opposite direction) of the shoulders in relation to the pelvis. This range of motion is FAR more than "just a few inches" in either direction. And BTW, I too have seen the video of the little girl, and she is moving way more than a few inches in eather direction.

[Pooka1]

Thanks for that, Gayle. Facts are always in order.

Considering even the minuscule amount of research there is on torso rotation, I don't think Schroth has a leg to stand on in suggesting it should be avoided. That is to say, I think we know enough to say it doesn't exacerbate curves.

[Dingo]

range of motion

For what it's worth this is from the original study on torso rotation by Dr. Vert Mooney.

The Role of Measured Resistance Exercises in Adolescent Scoliosis

To allow standardized evaluation for this study, torso rotation was restricted to 36 degrees in each direction.

If I understand the machine correctly at the end of a 90 degree turn the user is facing at a right angle. In Mooney's study they rotated left or right 36 degrees which is about a third of that distance. That's a fairly small range of motion.

To be honest I didn't realize until just now that they were using such small movements for this type of PT.

Maybe Mooney used 36 degrees because from a purely mechanical standpoint it made sense. His goal was to build symmetric muscle mass and small turns can accomplish that. Furthermore if the spine is already twisted too far in one direction why press your luck and rotate it even further?

[Dingo]

MedX available

Leahdragonfly

Just so happens my club has a MedX Rotary Torso Machine.

You are one of the few people on this board who have access to a MedX.

Why not have your daughter try it for 6 or 8 weeks and see if there is any difference? It's only twice per week, a few minutes each time. I'm sure Dr. McIntire would give you some pointers. Worst case scenario it will make no difference at all.

After Scott started doing my best at home "imitation" of the MedX torso rotation movement my wife and I noticed a difference in about a month.