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Thread: A few comments on trunk rotational strength training

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    I have the Dobosiewicz paper. I tried to scan it earlier and it didn't turn out so well. I'll tinker around with it and try to send it to you. That abstract was the presentation I saw.
    Thanks Kevin - I'd enjoy looking over that.

  2. #17
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    video

    Skevimc

    That's an interesting suggestion. Researchers and clinicians should definitely begin to use the media outlets that are available. It's one of the reasons I decided to come on the forum here. My interests lie in translational research and I have a passion for scientific communication. Going to the public/patient population with information instead of waiting for it to filter down through changes in clinical dogma could have a pretty big impact on the way we do certain clinical trials.
    I just did a quick search on YouTube and over 5 pages of videos popped up for "scoliosis exercise". There is a lot of interest because many of them have thousands of views. A short video with a disclaimer could start helping kids immediately. Many parents can't or won't take their kid to a gym no matter how motivated the child is. However most parents would spring $20 for a few exercise bands.

    YouTube: scoliosis exercise
    Last edited by Dingo; 01-14-2010 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions or comments. I’d be glad to answer whatever I can or give you my opinion from a research perspective.
    Dr. McIntire,

    A few questions:

    1. I realize you have a different post doc area (still within muscle physiology) but are you aware of any other researchers who look at the torso rotation literature and are going forward with more research at this time? That is, is it viewed as a fruitful area of PT-based research?

    2. Some folks here have said they were specifically told torso rotation, twisting, etc. was contraindicated for scoliosis. Do you know the basis for this admonition? I suspect it rests on very little evidence. I mean I don't think people were studying torso rotation enough to say that it should be avoided.

    3. There are many PT approaches out there at the moment for scoliosis. Do you consider Torso rotation to be the most promising at the moment by far?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 01-30-2010 at 09:46 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    2. Some folks here have said they were specifically told torso rotation, twisting, etc. was contraindicated for scoliosis. Do you know the basis for this admonition? I suspect it rests on very little evidence. I mean I don't think people were studying torso rotation enough to say that it should be avoided.
    I'm one of those folks.

    Questioning the advice (given to me by a surgeon), I was told that large sweeping rotations were to be avoided - but that short rotations "probably would do no harm." This advise was given relative to a conversation about exercise in general, and was based on my right thoracic, left thoracolumbar pattern.

    I was not told that the twisting exercise (large sweeping rotation), was contraindicated for scoliosis ... I was told it was contraindicataed for me and my curvature pattern/condition (and we must understand that in my specific case, age may be a factor - don't know, didn't ask).

    Again, the advice also indicated that short rotations were not an exercise issue for me. It's my understanding that the MedX machine involves short rotation. The studies interest me enough that I will visit a facility out in Portland Oregon next time I am out there.

    I didn't think much about that really until we began discussing such things here. Now I would like to know more - thanks for listing this as a question Sharon.

    Last edited by mamamax; 01-30-2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity

  5. #20
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    I don't see how your surgeon can be basing any of those comments (what's okay and what isn't) on any evidence.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I don't see how your surgeon can be basing any of those comments (what's okay and what isn't) on any evidence.
    I'll convey your concerns next I see him

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    I'll convey your concerns next I see him
    Thanks but be sure and use my screen name, not my real name.

    But seriously, since you are interested in this torso rotation stuff, maybe you can ask him to pony up the research articles that he is basing his comments on.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Thanks but be sure and use my screen name, not my real name.

    But seriously, since you are interested in this torso rotation stuff, maybe you can ask him to pony up the research articles that he is basing his comments on.
    No prob. Honestly I don't think he just pulled this advice out of the air - certainly he has a reason for it - I'll find out what that reason is. Our conversation was relative to an exercise program I was trying to put together for myself - which did not involve the MedX machine.

    Yes, I am interested in the MedX and its current and future rehab applications.



  9. #24
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    Dr. McIntire, one more question if I'm not over my limit...

    A mother of a patient just wrote: "They taught her to avoid twisting or extra turning as that can increase the torque of the spine."

    Were you aware Schroth is telling people that torso rotation is to be avoided?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #25
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    There are many exercises that Schroth recommends patients not do. Because they can worsen the condition. These are covered in the book that I have which is written by By Christa Lehnert-Schroth, who is a Physical Therapist.

    This could explain why my surgeon said something similar about wide sweeping rotation, also stating that short rotation would probably be ok - maybe he knows a bit more about these things than the average surgeon.

    Here's an example of exercises not recommended by Schroth for scoliosis patients: http://www.schrothmethod.com/about/y...scoliosis-menu.

    In the example - note the wide sweeping rotation of the spinal twist. I do not believe the MedX machine operates in the same manner, and that it can be modified to short rotational movements.
    Last edited by mamamax; 01-31-2010 at 06:32 PM.

  11. #26
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    From that link, they say avoid "Twisting the torso."

    Therefore they are saying not to do torso rotation.

    More verbiage indicating torso rotation is completely out per Schroth...

    2) AVOID ALL ROTATIONS OF THE SHOULDER GIRDLE AND RIB CAGE AGAINST THE PELVIC GIRDLE

    The central segment, the rib hump, is enlarged as it rotates backwards into the existing curvature, regardless of whether the rotation is to the left or right side.

    Spinal Twist - Ardha Matsyendrasana (photos in sidebar at left)
    This exercise is excellent for straight, normal backs. In it, the internal organs are squeezed, that is, freed of waste.

    However, people with scoliosis should absolutely avoid the Spinal Twist. A scoliotic body usually has three or four contortions (counter-rotations) between the pelvis, rib cage, and shoulder girdle. These are exacerbated by twisting the shoulder girdle against the pelvic girdle while the middle section, the rib cage, is ignored.

    That middle section is precisely where the prominent rib hump is located, and on the other side the rib valley. Whether the torso is twisted left or right, the rib hump and the rib valley will increase. If you twist so far that you can hear your spine crack, that is a sign that the spinal rib joints are moving further into an abnormally twisted state. It does no good to do this movement once to the right and once to the left: it is counterproductive in both cases.

    Triangle - Trikonasana
    To be completely avoided in scoliosis, because here the shoulder girdle is twisted against the pelvic girdle and the middle section (which thereby creates a rib hump) must follow after the more comfortable side.
    Other inappropriate twisting exercises for scoliosis

    * Bharadvajasana - Seated twist
    * Marichyasana - Sage twist
    Last edited by Pooka1; 01-31-2010 at 06:38 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  12. #27
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    so - my question to Kevin is:

    Does the MedX (to his knowledge), rotate the shoulder girdle and rib cage against the pelvic girdle.

    And if so, can it be modified to do so in a "harmless" fashion for the scoliosis patient (i.e., very short rotations vs long and wide sweeping)?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post

    so - my question to Kevin is:

    Does the MedX (to his knowledge), rotate the shoulder girdle and rib cage against the pelvic girdle.

    And if so, can it be modified to do so in a "harmless" fashion for the scoliosis patient (i.e., very short rotations vs long and wide sweeping)?
    Torso rotation EQUALS, IS, IN OTHER WORDS, to "rotate the shoulder girdle and rib cage against the pelvic girdle. Short versus long twisting is still all twisting which is OUT per Schroth.

    I don't think we need a PhD in rehab therapy specializing in muscle physio to teach us English.

    There is no room to disagree whatsoever. Schroth and torso rotation are at complete odds in terms of claims about this PT. Therefore someone is right and someone is wrong. The question is, which camp is right and which camp is wrong.

    I suggest there is no evidence case for either camp to decide the matter.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Torso rotation EQUALS, IS, IN OTHER WORDS, to "rotate the shoulder girdle and rib cage against the pelvic girdle. Short versus long twisting is still all twisting which is OUT per Schroth.

    I don't think we need a PhD in rehab therapy specializing in muscle physio to teach us English.

    There is no room to disagree whatsoever. Schroth and torso rotation are at complete odds in terms of claims about this PT. Therefore someone is right and someone is wrong. The question is, which camp is right and which camp is wrong.

    I suggest there is no evidence case for either camp to decide the matter.
    I don't think it is that simple Sharon.

    The Schroth examples are of very very long twist/rotation. This is not the same thing as very very short twist/rotation. As my doctor pointed out when we were discussing exercise options for me.

    Schroth is not saying never twist the torso - they are saying to not do exercises which involve a long twist/rotation, as per their example.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    Schroth is not saying never twist the torso
    Yes they are. Here is a direct quote:

    AVOID ALL ROTATIONS OF THE SHOULDER GIRDLE AND RIB CAGE AGAINST THE PELVIC GIRDLE
    (emphasis added to draw your attention to the relevant word)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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