Regarding likely outcome on pain

[mamamax]

I'd like to see that if it exists.


Martha Hawe's does not have a 15-year study. She has an anecdotal case, which has never been reported in a peer reviewed journal.

You missed my answer on the adult Spinecor study.

As for Martha Hawes - she is published in Scoliosis Journal - which is (as I understand it) a peer reviewed journal. From their website:

• Scoliosis uses online peer review to speed up the publication process. The time taken to reach a final decision depends on whether reviewers request revisions, and how quickly authors are able to respond.
  
• Scoliosis has an open peer-review process, aimed at improving the accountability of peer review and giving reviewers credit for the work they do.

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/info/instructions/

[LindaRacine]

Likewise, it's misleading to use the word "eliminate." I can live with reduce, or even, "often significantly reduce." But eliminate is a very strong word. I, personally, feel mistrustful when people throw around such charged words.

I actually totally agree with this. I currently volunteer with (and soon will work with) a surgeon who has amazing outcomes. I know of 2 or 3 of his patients who would consider themselves to have had bad outcomes. (Curiously, they both post to public forums.) The rest of his patients, when surveyed (and they all are), have said that their pain is either gone or vastly improved. He NEVER tells patients that they'll be out of pain. I think that's a relatively dangerous claim to make, as it seems to me that it might open the physician up to lawsuits.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

You missed my answer on the adult Spinecor study.

As for Martha Hawes - she is published in Scoliosis Journal - which is (as I understand it) a peer reviewed journal. From their website:

• Scoliosis uses online peer review to speed up the publication process. The time taken to reach a final decision depends on whether reviewers request revisions, and how quickly authors are able to respond.
  
• Scoliosis has an open peer-review process, aimed at improving the accountability of peer review and giving reviewers credit for the work they do.

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/info/instructions/

Published 13 days ago. I missed it. Hardly time for any peer-review (which rarely happens in that journal anyway).

[mamamax]

I think we're missing each other here. I'm not saying that it's not possible - I'm saying it's not the likely outcome that one would emphasize. For example, I know that it's possible for people to have their curves surgically reduced to equivalent to zero degrees. There are a few examples here. But, I would not expect a doctor who had seen that happen to post on a forum "We can reduce your curve to zero degrees." That still uses the "can" construction, but it's misleading, especially for an adult audience.

Likewise, it's misleading to use the word "eliminate." I can live with reduce, or even, "often significantly reduce." But eliminate is a very strong word. I, personally, feel mistrustful when people throw around such charged words.

OTOH, if Dr. Anand *mostly* sees pain *completely elminated* in adult patients with a painful lumbar curve, that would be more acceptable. I would still prefer more cautious language.

This is knowable. He'd just have to post his results.

I would agree. The can construction implies a sure thing. What concerns me most about surgery, more than pain factor, is the - revision factor. Something that again, cannot be definitively anticipated or dismissed.

[LindaRacine]

You missed my answer on the adult Spinecor study.

As for Martha Hawes - she is published in Scoliosis Journal - which is (as I understand it) a peer reviewed journal. From their website:

• Scoliosis uses online peer review to speed up the publication process. The time taken to reach a final decision depends on whether reviewers request revisions, and how quickly authors are able to respond.
  
• Scoliosis has an open peer-review process, aimed at improving the accountability of peer review and giving reviewers credit for the work they do.

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/info/instructions/

And, let us not confuse a single anecdotal case with a study.

[mamamax]

And, let us not confuse a single anecdotal case with a study.

ok - nomenclature: The article type is: case report. But lots of folks sure are studying it :-) The case report is certainly important from the standpoint that it is the first scientifically documented case of its type. Is she the only person on this planet to experience such a thing. I don't think so.

[LindaRacine]

It's interesting that you can clearly see the issue when it comes to surgery, but can't see it in terms of alternative therapies. You both (Mamamax and hdugger) have talked about reversal of curves in adults from alternative therapies. It seems to me that reversal could be construed as a complete reversal. That's nowhere near correct. From all of Martha Hawe's therapies put together, she was able to get approximately a 10 degree improvement. I've never heard of a complete reversal of curves in an adult, even in the short-term.

[mamamax]

Published 13 days ago. I missed it. Hardly time for any peer-review (which rarely happens in that journal anyway).

It's my understanding that it was "in process" for some time before its announcement 13 days ago. With your connections, maybe you could make a few calls and find out for us?

[mamamax]

It's interesting that you can clearly see the issue when it comes to surgery, but can't see it in terms of alternative therapies. You both (Mamamax and hdugger) have talked about reversal of curves in adults from alternative therapies. It seems to me that reversal could be construed as a complete reversal. That's nowhere near correct. From all of Martha Hawe's therapies put together, she was able to get approximately a 10 degree improvement. I've never heard of a complete reversal of curves in an adult, even in the short-term.

Actually I see all kinds of issues with some non surgical therapies but I don't know the need to go into that here.

I had not heard of reversal of any kind prior to Martha Hawes - probably most people haven't. I had always been told it was impossible with adults. There is a woman who posted here recently (in one of the Hawes threads) who had a similar experience without any therapy whatsoever. Based on the work of Hawes alone, I suspect there are other undocumented occurrences. I don't know - but it seems reasonable to suspect.

Martha has had more than a 10 degree reduction. Over a fifteen year period (1990 to 2005) she has reduced her thoracic curve by 20 degrees (or near 50%) and her lumbar curve by 16 degrees (near 40%).

[LindaRacine]

Ah, I see what you were highlighting in the other post. I absolutely do not believe that exercise can completely or even mostly reduce a curve. That was just sloppy writing on my part. I really just meant reverse as in "the opposite of progress"

Sorry, I did not at all want to give the impression that I thought exercise was some miracle cure. I'm just interested to see that it can reverse/reduce a curve.

Whether it comes from a professional, or just a poster in a patient forum, there are plenty of people who read these claims and believe them to be true. We should all be very careful about talking in absolutes.

[mamamax]

That there are no absolutes - is absolutely true :-) Surgical or non surgical. I do believe most adults here in this forum are perfectly capable of making adult judgments about what they read.

[LindaRacine]

Martha has had more than a 10 degree reduction. Over a fifteen year period (1990 to 2005) she has reduced her thoracic curve by 20 degrees (or near 50%) and her lumbar curve by 16 degrees (near 40%).

According to the PDF, by 1 of 3 methods she reduced her curves by about 20 degrees. The other 2 methods, it was about 10 degrees. Nonetheless, it's not zero.

As I've said all along, it's possible for some people to potentially avoid surgery, at least in the short term, by means of an alternative program. If that's the case for you, great. If, on the other hand, one spends a lot of time or money on a program (as did Joy), and then eventually has to go on to surgery anyway, then the long-term outcome isn't so great.

[LindaRacine]

I'm not talking in absolutes - I used a word that can mean both to de-progress as well as to completely cure. I meant the former, as I would hope would be obvious within the context of the discussion.

"Eliminate" OTOH, only has one meaning as far as I know.

And, the physician's statement of "A minimally invasive procedure can straighten out your spine and eliminate your pain." doesn't refer to an absolute either. Can is different than will.

[mamamax]

According to the PDF, by 1 of 3 methods she reduced her curves by about 20 degrees. The other 2 methods, it was about 10 degrees. Nonetheless, it's not zero.

As I've said all along, it's possible for some people to potentially avoid surgery, at least in the short term, by means of an alternative program. If that's the case for you, great. If, on the other hand, one spends a lot of time or money on a program (as did Joy), and then eventually has to go on to surgery anyway, then the long-term outcome isn't so great.

I'm glad you address the subject of methodology (regarding cobb angle measurements) in this study (well, that's what Martha calls it on page 22). Maybe we can learn more about this. Method one (representing the 50/40% reduction), is from triplicate readings by three independent readers (the peer review processes?), and according to protocols defined by Goldberg et al (her reference #66).

Method #2 is taken from two independent institutions and carried out in non-blinded readings from film copies provided by the authors, and an explanation for each institution's findings is given on page 22 - where we find this information in table form.

So - what is the difference? And is there reason to accept one over the other?

[Pooka1]

You missed my answer on the adult Spinecor study.

As for Martha Hawes - she is published in Scoliosis Journal - which is (as I understand it) a peer reviewed journal. From their website:

• Scoliosis uses online peer review to speed up the publication process. The time taken to reach a final decision depends on whether reviewers request revisions, and how quickly authors are able to respond.
  
• Scoliosis has an open peer-review process, aimed at improving the accountability of peer review and giving reviewers credit for the work they do.

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/info/instructions/

I looked at the editorial board. Are they chiros? How many are qualified surgeons?

You know, not to beat a dead horse but the creationists also have "peer reviewed" journals but it is still stem to stern nonsense.

I'm just sayin'...