Case study: Non-surgical reversal of scoliosis in a mature adult

[Pooka1]

What does all that massage cost?

Ti Ed will have to ti-edify (LOL!) me on the cost of massage but let's take $35/hour.

If Hawes paid $35/hour for 4 hours a day for 5 years, not counting leap day that will cost $63,875.

Still less than most surgeries though so there's that.

[hdugger]

I believe it was self-applied - "was used by the patient." That ought to bring the cost down to zero.

The professional massage sessions were much less frequent during that period.

[Pooka1]

Okay I think you are correct upon re-reading that.

So the cost is now far less than surgery.

[Pooka1]

And by the way, I don't see how self-applied massage could possibly have affected the curve. She was just doing it for pain anyway. It must be just the PT.

I also wonder if she has radiographs that showed a non-monotonic decrease (i.e., an increase) in the curve over all those years that corresponds to periods when she stopped the PT. There are big gaps in time that we are to believe contained no radiographs. That is, I am asking if any data were omitted. That would be bad as it would change some conclusions about the permanence of this treatment.

[LindaRacine]

I'm trying to imagine how someone can massage their own back.

[Pooka1]

I guess she laid on things or pushed up against things on the wall?

She was just dong it for pain relief apparently.

[Dingo]

this massager is gold

LindaRacine

I'm trying to imagine how someone can massage their own back.

This massager is gold
Therapist Select™ Percussion Massager with Heat

[LindaRacine]

LindaRacine



This massager is gold
Therapist Select™ Percussion Massager with Heat

How that could possibly have had any effect on curve magnitude is beyond me.

[LindaRacine]

Well, that explains it all! ;-)

[hdugger]

And by the way, I don't see how self-applied massage could possibly have affected the curve. She was just doing it for pain anyway. It must be just the PT.

We're far too early into the search to toss any clues aside, IMO. I've noted a few places that two of the data points discuss a combination of PT and massage. Both avenues are worth exploring.

I also wonder if she has radiographs that showed a non-monotonic decrease (i.e., an increase) in the curve over all those years that corresponds to periods when she stopped the PT. There are big gaps in time that we are to believe contained no radiographs. That is, I am asking if any data were omitted. That would be bad as it would change some conclusions about the permanence of this treatment.

Wasn't the stop in PT in the 1990s? I'm seeing xrays at least every four years during that period (1990, 1994, 1998, 2001).

We're not arguing permanence here, though, are we? Ah, I see, because you don't think the massage mattered so you think there's a gap. My suspicion is that the massage was part of the effective treatment, but we don't have any way of knowing.

So, two theories (one assuming massage works and one assuming it doesn't).

If massage does work, then it managed to at least hold the reduction for the 1998 x-ray).

If massage doesn't work, then we throw out the only modality that she did for 4 hours a day and attribute all of the reduction to no more than one hour of exercise a day. Even if she lost the reduction and then regained it (which assumes some less than transparent reporting on her part which I have no reason to suppose) it means that the curve held from 1992 to 1994 (when an xray was taken) without any exercise, and then, even if the curve reduction was partly lost from 1994 to 1997, it had to be regained between 1997 and 1998 with no more than one hour of exercise a day. So, either massage works, which is great, or curve reductions hold, which is great, or one can lose a reduction and gain it back with no more then one hour of exercise a day, which is great. Am I missing some way of looking at it which is bad?

[txmarinemom]

I'm trying to imagine how someone can massage their own back.

Well, since I'm in school to *be* a massage therapist, I probably shouldn't show y'all this (LOL). I have one, and LOVE it.

(Actually, I've posted it before: It works great for trigger points - but that's about it. Much more refined than lying on golf balls/tennis balls/leaning into wall edges - all of which I've been known to do. ;-)

Pam

[titaniumed]

Sharon,

Ti-edify, that has a nice ring to it!

First thing, $35hr is cheap. That will get your toenails painted. A good masseuse is worth much more. I would do 90 minute massages, and I would pay around $120. My last masseuse worked pretty hard on me.

I probably spent $50,000 on maintaining my back from 1986 to 2008. That's 22 years. I started having problems with severe pain when I turned 42. Of course, jumping off 50 foot cliffs on skis didn't help.

I was doing ok with my maintenance, but when I was around 40, I had a doozie of a ski crash which resulted in a level 3 spondy at my apex. Its like a car falling off a bumper jack. It made for an interesting x-ray, I must say. I was doing vertical traction, and heavy Chiro, and it eventually returned to its previous position.

Having twin 50-70 degree curves over the years,and doing the things I did, I guess I'm lucky. I really didn't expect any correction, and knew that I needed surgery some day.

Men are much stiffer than women. I mean, I was tight. I would have girls walk on my back and I would have them put their right foot on my rib hump(upper right back) and their left foot about 2 inches above my waist(lower left back) and hop or de-weight to counter my cork and get an adjustment. This was on the ex-hale. Sometimes,I ended up so tight that I would need a heavier girl, or 2 light ones at the same time.

I don't doubt that one could achieve some correction with an alternative program. It would take many hours per day, doing the right things. I did have some minor correction years ago, but as soon as I slacked off the program, or "jumped off a cliff" I would lose it all. I even skied in my brace years ago. I found that I would get cold from the perspiration, and would really have to bundle up.

Id like to ti-iterate, and say that I went as long as I could. At the time that I finally made my decision to have surgery, my pain was so severe that I didn't think I would live another year. My Chiros and masseuses kept me walking and skiing and my surgeon saved my life.

Now, all I have to worry about is all the cts I've had. If 1 ct = 442 x-rays, Add it all up, and I figure I've had about I've had about 1400 x-rays in my lifetime. Between that and the average 10-15 Wi-fi signals and associated radio frequency coming into my home, you might say, I'm starting to "glow a bit"

Scoliosis is a test of endurance.... Only the toughest, need apply.

Ed

[Pooka1]

How that could possibly have had any effect on curve magnitude is beyond me.

Well if a modified handheld jigsaw can decrease curves per Clear then why not that?

[Pooka1]

Here's my best little lay guess as to what explains the decrease in Cobb angle...

There is radiographic evidence that the distance between the anterior of T7 and her chest wall increased. I think we can assume the mobilization exercises she did caused this or were otherwise coincident with it. I think that changed the chest wall configuration to such an extent that it affected the Cobb angle as a consequence. That is, if you can manage to improve the chest cavity volume and symmetry, a reduction in Cobb angle necessarily ensues.

That would be consistent with the lack of targeted exercises to decrease the Cobb angle and that targeted exercises to reduce Cobb angle are ineffective.

I think the focus on the chest characteristics combined with the lack of targeted exercises is hinting at this. They may have even said so... I tried to only skim the article and then only sections so as not to be biased by their thoughts. I looked at the tables and figures and went to the text for basic explanation of those things (what was done not what it means). I'll read it as some point.

If I were a researcher pursuing this, I would focus on studying ways to expand and even out the chest cavity as a means to reduce/stabilize thoracic scoliosis.

And if that is the actual mechanism then that leaves the lumbar folks high and dry unfortunately.

[hdugger]

If I were a researcher pursuing this, I would focus on studying ways to expand and even out the chest cavity as a means to reduce/stabilize thoracic scoliosis.

That's an interesting idea. Do you think it relates at all to the Schroth idea of "derotational breathing"? (I think that's the right term.)

Martha talks about alot of breathe type work, yoga requires breathing work, as does the Schroth method. I *think* that leaves out the SEAS person, but I'd have to look again.