Another study connects asymmetry and Scoliosis

[Pooka1]

Isn't one supposed to post research in the research section? I like the idea of people posting and advancing pet theories - just gives up more things to graw on.

I actually found the discussion interesting (although I'm not following with any level of comprehension) until the whole thing kind of blew up.

What if I started posting my bunny take on research in plasma physics to a plasma physics group wherein it was obvious I have no grasp whatsoever of the material?

Would that be considered "contributing?"

[hdugger]

What if I started posting my bunny take on research in plasma physics to a plasma physics group wherein it was obvious I have no grasp whatsoever of the material?

Would that be considered "contributing?"

Well, I'm not on a plasma physics group forum, so I wouldn't know. But, research posted in a research forum for a group of parents/patients with scoliosis is a good use of the forum, IMO.

We're exceeding the comment/substance ratio here, though, I think. Perhaps we ought to take the metadiscussion back to the "way forward" topic.

[Dingo]

research section

hdugger

Isn't one supposed to post research in the research section?

When scientists finally prove the exact nature of Scoliosis this site will no longer exist. The people arguing with me in this and other threads know this. These folks are simply trolls looking for attention. Most boards ban people like that but since this board doesn't they migrate here.

an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters

It wouldn't surprise me if this was going on. There are a "group" of people on here who all practice they same brand of stupid.

[hdugger]

Dingo,

In the only realm in which I'm going to claim real authority (I ran the community moderation department for a small discussion software company for eight years) I can assure you that this is not troll action. It's just a group of people who strongly disagree with you.

BTW, you are *well* over the one "you're a poo-poo head" post for every three pages of discussion. If you hold off for three more pages, you can let go on the 7th

[Dingo]

disagreement

hdugger

It's just a group of people who strongly disagree with you.

I'm not sure if they ever do disagree with me. I posted 3 studies on Calmodulin and I don't think anyone disagreed with their findings.

[leahdragonfly]

Dingo, I personally find most of your posts so completely "out there", especially coming from a lay person, that I find it best to try and ignore your posts as much as possible. I have more important things to do than discuss calmodulin levels with you. So please, do not take a lack of comment on your posts to mean that everyone agrees with you.

Now, please do not take this personally. I respect you for trying to do the best possible for your son.

Good day,

[PNUTTRO]

I reread this thread and I must admit that my posts lacked clarity at the beginning. Once one disagrees with DINGO, the rebuttals come fast and furious.

I simply wanted to point out that there are contrary opinions to those of Moreau et al. I did make the error of confusing the cAMP test with the OPN patent. I read part of it and it looks a concept patent so that no else can use OPN as a marker for scoliosis without paying Moreau.

I am continually frustrated by so called scientists that are more interesting in their own financial gain than publishing their "revolutionary results". Moreau's results, by the way, still have not been published.

I sent a list of my publications to Dingo and he still doesn't believe that I am real. I submitted evidence to him within several minutes and if I wanted to create a false identity, I certainly would have come up with a better profile.

Sharon, did you happen to look up my scripture reference. I realize that you don't have a bible at home, but you can find it easily online. Honestly, it won't kill you. It is very apt to the question of credibility.

p

[Pooka1]

Sharon, did you happen to look up my scripture reference. I realize that you don't have a bible at home, but you can find it easily online. Honestly, it won't kill you. It is very apt to the question of credibility.

p

Yes I did as soon as you posted it. I agree it is apt.

I fear we are in an endless, mindless loop here in the research section.

The research section is a bit bizarre in my opinion. The PT papers are one thing but the biochem papers are tough without knowing the background. Understanding the English in the paper is never enough. Besides you, I don't know of anyone else on here with much biochem under their belt. I have but one 500 level course so I am really struggling with this material.

I think this section should be for people posting articles written for lay people. Absent that, it should be for researchers who can explain the biochem papers. Having lay people come on here discussing this material is comical at best and misleading at worst. I don't understand the need to posture.

[Dingo]

Calmodulin studies

leahdragonfly

So please, do not take a lack of comment on your posts to mean that everyone agrees with you.

I was only refering to PNUTTRO and POOKA1. Neither of them disagreed with those 3 Calmodulin studies and yet we had a huge debate about essentially... nothing.

I put them on my ignore list so I have no idea if they've gotten around to finding fault with those studies at this time.

I personally find most of your posts so completely "out there", especially coming from a lay person, that I find it best to try and ignore your posts as much as possible.

Right now there is no certainty as to what will help Scoliosis. I look for ideas that are potentially helpful and have a few things in common.

Idea checklist
A) It's based on mainstream scientific thought
B) It's inexpensive
C) It's easy
D) It's considered a healthy behavior in children without Scoliosis
E) Worst case scenario it won't hurt

Whether you are talking about exercise, fish oil, or sleeping in a dark room those are all healthy, inexpensive things that a doctor would recommend for any kid. I strongly believe that strength training helps Scoliosis but worst case scenario it won't hurt.

[hdugger]

This checklist is exactly why I've thought that these papers were helpful, even without professional vetting. Most of us have years and years of watching and waiting. Since medicine offers nothing to do during those years, any lead meeting these criteria is useful. Most, maybe all, won't pan out. But, if something that has not been thoroughly vetted actually works for even one kid, it's worthwhile.

Idea checklist
A) It's based on mainstream scientific thought
B) It's inexpensive
C) It's easy
D) It's considered a healthy behavior in children without Scoliosis
E) Worst case scenario it won't hurt

Whether you are talking about exercise, fish oil, or sleeping in a dark room those are all healthy, inexpensive things that a doctor would recommend for any kid. I strongly believe that strength training helps Scoliosis but worst case scenario it won't hurt.

[Pooka1]

This checklist is exactly why I've thought that these papers were helpful, even without professional vetting.

That checklist has ZIP to do with the biochem, neuroendocrine, hormone cascades, etc. etc. papers being posted here. And how would a lay person know what is and isn't mainstream thought? He seems to single out fringe stuff and then has no way or discerning which is which. There have been papers posted and I have seen others that list a huge number of research avenues in scoliosis. It is passing strange why or how Dingo latches onto one avenue and not the other. It would appear random to a researcher in the field.

Besides Pnuttro, I am unaware of anyone who can really dissect these papers. I can barely follow some of her comments. Some I can't follow. We can know for a fact that Dingo doesn't understand this work because when he posts contradictory results, he doesn't note that they are contradictory or try to explain the divergence.

And he doesn't remember or understand material from his own threads. It was established on one of his threads that a researcher has stopped working with torso rotation, presumably for lack of long term results, but Dingo still accused Gayle of making up that fact.

It's not a crime to have zero background in biochem. But when only one person in the group is equipped to vet the articles and it's not the poster, it is useless at best. And why should Pnuttro have to come one here every time to provide the straight dope? I'm sure she has other things to do. This is the same reason we will likely never get a biochem scoliosis researcher on here. The amount of edification and the sheer amount of time involved in it is daunting.

[Dingo]

watch and wait

hdugger

When I went to my son's first appointment I asked his doctor what we should do. He told me there was nothing we could do. I asked if exercise or stretching would help and he said no.

So I went online and I read... and read... and read... for months. Eventually I started writing the scientists who were involved in Scoliosis studies. To my surprise many times they wrote back with insights and observations that never made it into their studies.

One thing I learned from my reading was that inflammation was connected to just about every mental or physical illness that people suffer from. On the off chance that inflammation was either a cause or consequence of Scoliosis I purchased a pharmeceutical grade fish oil supplement for my son. He takes it every morning.

Since that time Dr. Moreau released his patent that indicated that high levels of Osteopontin are the cause of Scoliosis. Guess what... Osteopontin is a marker for inflammation. I'm glad I was proactive with the fish oil.

We also darkened my son's room to maximize his natural production of melatonin because of the possibility that low melatonin may lead to increased curve progression. The jury is still out on that but melatonin is a natural anti-inflammatory so I'm glad we took that step. In any case his sleep improved and sleeping in a dark room probably reduced his risk of cancer and other diseases.

As for exercise there is a whole thread devoted to that.

If 5 or 10 years from now Scoliosis is officially pinned on some type of asymmetry in the paraspinal muscles I'll be glad we were ahead of the curve. Worst case scenario my son is getting 10 extra minutes of exercise per day.

I should add this. There are probably many parents who are doing the exact same thing for their kids that I am doing. None of it is rocket science and the research is available to everyone. My 6 year old son is doing fine. I write on this and other boards in the hope that it will help someone else.

[hdugger]

Hi Dingo,

This is probably not the right thread for it, but did you look at the papers about . . . not remembering the term here . . . something like shifting to the side? So, participants were asked to shift their upper body weight away from the curved side. This didn't appear to have much effect if they did it while they were sitting, but it did have some effect, they thought, if the participants did it while standing.

One of the things I keep pulling out of the few "successes" is that some kind of body awareness throughout the day is helpful. The what and how of that awareness, though, is pretty fuzzy.

[hdugger]

Googling . . . They're calling it side-shifting. Here are some studies:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8c5d80y3dl9b8j4/
(with young patients with small curves, compared to a "historical" bracing control and found equiivalent - whatever we think that means

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15457756
(in skeletally mature patients - no progression in curve over 4 years)

Not sustainable in that studies have shown that the effect goes away? Or that it's not a reasonable thing to ask people to do?

[Dingo]

side shift therapy

hdugger

Very interesting, I've never heard of "side-shift" therapy. I would imagine that any activity that builds the paraspinal muscles would be helpful. Maybe this does something like that.

Generally speaking more muscular kids have less chance of curve progression.

Relation between adolescent idiopathic scoliosis and morphologic somatotypes.

Fifty-two adolescent girls with progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis were compared with an age-matched control group of 62 unaffected girls using a classification technique based on morphologic somatotypes.

Subjects with progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis are significantly less mesomorphic than control girls. This observation may be of value as a predictive factor for early identification of subjects with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis at greater risk of progression.