Moderate? Really??

[cbeem]

I DO have my first 2 xrays before I ever wore a brace...like 10 years old, curve at 10 degrees, then 12 curve much more--those are from the doc I went to before MY scoliosis doc. Do you think those could help see that the top curve didn't (at least that I can see) have a congenital defect at one point?

Unfortunately, mom can't find the really important xrays during and after the bracing. Blerg.

[mamamax]

Xray Interpretations

I'm no expert - don't know that we actually have any here. I believe there is more than one method of measuring and that measurement interpretations may vary from one person to another (and even from one true expert to another)?

Ask 100 people an opinion - you may get 100 differing opinions :-)

This is precisely why I have decided to not post my xrays. Though I may change my mind one day.

cbeem - just curious ... who measured your xrays and can you obtain the written radiological report?

[Pooka1]

I DO have my first 2 xrays before I ever wore a brace...like 10 years old, curve at 10 degrees, then 12 curve much more--those are from the doc I went to before MY scoliosis doc. Do you think those could help see that the top curve didn't (at least that I can see) have a congenital defect at one point?

Unfortunately, mom can't find the really important xrays during and after the bracing. Blerg.

Any and all radiographs from the past will be important for the reason you state and also in estimating progression rate (if any).

And by the way, this not being my field, I can't see anything wrong with the shape of any vertebra. I'm just surmising there might be something based on the seemingly small number of vertebrae involved in the curve.

[Pooka1]

I'm no expert - don't know that we actually have any here.

Yes we do... we recently had a legit researcher start posting.

Ask 100 people an opinion - you may get 100 differing opinions :-)

That overstates the situation with Cobb angle measurements as far as I can tell.

[mamamax]

Yes we do... we recently had a legit researcher start posting.

Yes, but said researcher is not necessarily an expert radiologist, etc ... correct?

That overstates the situation with Cobb angle measurements as far as I can tell.

And here I thought it was an understatement!

[Pooka1]

Yes, but said researcher is not necessarily an expert radiologist, etc ... correct?

There is no evidence that measuring Cobb angles is rocket surgery. If you do it the "long" way rather than by eye, extending lines out from the surface of each vertebrae, there is very little room for error on vertebrae selection. Now there is likely professional opinion about whether to include a particular vertebrae in a curve measurement perhaps due to rotation or something.

Maybe McIntire will comment on this and whether he measured the Cobb angles in his studies or whether he relied on radiologists or surgeons. I would especially be interested in hearing his opinion on the intrinsic degree of difficulty of doing a Cobb measurement (as opposed to interpreting it) compared to, let's say, doing a controlled study in the field of PT or bracing.

[mamamax]

There is no evidence that measuring Cobb angles is rocket surgery.

Well I dare say - it takes a greater understanding than most of us have.

Here's a good example:

http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.asp?rID=24348

[Pooka1]

Well I dare say - it takes a greater understanding than most of us have.

Here's a good example:

http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.asp?rID=24348

Again, that is not rocket surgery. Everyone here could do those measurements on a radiograph. It is very understandable (and interesting) and you could do that measurement yourself.

Note the caveats.

[mamamax]

Everyone here could do those measurements on a radiograph. It is very understandable (and interesting) and you could do that measurement yourself.

I disagree - I don't think everyone/most here could do those comparative measurements. And one thing I noted from that referenced article was - that readings varied among three different readers.

Maybe this would be easy for you Sharon? I would be interested in your applying both methods outlined in the article to the xrays presented in this thread - as a "test" only of the methodologies - and certainly not an expert interpretation. Could you really write it up the same way as this article does? Would you? I still think most of us could not - with any degree of true accuracy.

Referenced article: http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.asp?rID=24348

[Pooka1]

[COLOR="Navy"]I disagree - I don't think everyone/most here could do those comparative measurements. And one thing I noted from that referenced article was - that readings varied among three different readers.

Maybe this would be easy for you Sharon? I would be interested in your applying both methods outlined in the article to the xrays presented in this thread - as a "test" only of the methodologies - and certainly not an expert interpretation. Could you really write it up the same way as this article does? Would you? I still think most of us could not - with any degree of true accuracy.

I suggest you disagree and think this is difficult out of a lack of trying to do it yourself.

They are taking the most tilted vertebrae (as determined using those parallel line segments I mentioned) plus one above and below. It is not rational to claim most here can't do that much. Don't let this blow your mind. Boil it down.

[mamamax]

Boil it down.

ok lets boil it down ... and lets look to you to do that since you find it "easy". Using both methodologies - what are the measurements that you come up with (along with stated justification) in reference to the xrays shared in this thread? Again - as an interpretation, rather than expert opinion - and a practical demonstration of how easy it is.

[Pooka1]

ok lets boil it down ... and lets look to you to do that since you find it "easy". Using both methodologies - what are the measurements that you come up with (along with stated justification) in reference to the xrays shared in this thread? Again - as an interpretation, rather than expert opinion - and a practical demonstration of how easy it is.

I will do that if you tell me how you will be able to judge the ease and accuracy of my numbers? We don't have accurate professional measurements on those radiographs as they appear clearly underestimated. So how will you assess my measurements?

I hope McIntire comes on to edify either me or you. This is getting a bit rarified let's say.

[mamamax]

I will do that if you tell me how you will be able to judge the ease and accuracy of my numbers? We don't have accurate professional measurements on those radiographs as they appear clearly underestimated. So how will you assess my measurements?

I hope McIntire comes on to edify either me or you. This is getting a bit rarified let's say.

Firstly - I would look for you to completely disregard any previous measurement. Next - apply the same two techniques outlined in the article - along with the mathematical calculations/equations used for each method (referenced please).

Best if you have a photo-editor and can post the drawings (as shown in the article).

How would I assess the measurements (personally)? I'd check the references containing the mathematical formulas - and then check the calculations.

Asking a lot of you Sharon, I know - but for sake of demonstration of how easy it is do do these things ... a good thing, I think.

[Pooka1]

Mamamax, I am confident you can do this. Take one of your radiographs or one online with a single curve.

1. Cobb angle determination:

Here is how to measure Cobb angle from a post Susie*Bee made a while ago...

http://www.pediatriceducation.org/2006/12/11/

2. Centroid method:

Look at the diagram and follow that method.

Now compare the two measurements.

Now again, I am not claiming there isn't some professional opinion involved at some points in this but I am saying most tilted vertebrae, most tilted vertebrae plus one, and the relevant angles can be determined easily. Translating that to a prognosis and bringing in rotation and other aspects is pro territory.

[Pooka1]

I'd check the references containing the mathematical formulas - and then check the calculations.

There are no mathemathical formulae. It is being able to:

1. identify the correct vertebrae (use the extended line analysis if necessary)
2. drawn straight lines with rulers
3. use a protractor

I know for a fact you can do these things.