Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Braist Study

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    When I have read this:

    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
    One of the better bracing studies shows NO correlation with things you think are important to lack of progression. That suggests the previous studies which appeared to show some correlation might be flawed.
    I suppose you had something important to said that and criticize what I said

    Originally posted by flerc View Post
    They not said anything about reduction in brace and spine flexibility Probably were not good and seems that brace was not complemented with nothing more (as exercises) and anyway the brace group were more succesful..
    In this way

    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
    You keep mentioning this but what is the evidence for it? There was NO correlation between flexibility, percent correction in brace, and progression in everyone's favorite bracing study(TM), Katz et al. (2010).

    p. 1351, left column, middle...

    http://scanscoliosis.com/files/DOC075.pdf

    Reduction in brace, flexibility, PT as relating to decreased progression are all faith positions at the moment, not science.
    But I forgot that in your limited idea about what science is, just only the testing analysis take place, so if we have not some evidence directly showing something, there is not any reason (as logical reasoning based over assumption with reasonable reliability) to believe that surely is true.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by flerc View Post
      But I forgot that in your limited idea about what science is, just only the testing analysis take place, so if we have not some evidence directly showing something, there is not any reason (as logical reasoning based over assumption with reasonable reliability) to believe that surely is true.
      It may be right. But when one of the better brace studies that attempts to control for more factors does not find that result then there is less reason to think it is right. It might be that it is correct but is so overwhelmed by other factors that it would be impossible to show.

      You can't just KNOW it. You have to SHOW it. That's what separates evidence from faith.
      Last edited by Pooka1; 10-15-2013, 12:53 PM.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
        It may be right.
        What I think about reduction in brace or also about your limited idea about what science is? I may only show enough evidence about the last.

        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
        But when one of the better brace studies that attempts to control for more factors does not find that result then there is less reason to think it is right. It might be that it is correct but is so overwhelmed by other factors that it would be impossible to show.
        This study was done to show the effectivenes of braces and if hours in brace was evaluated surely was because obviously should to have a (causal of course) correlation if braces are really effective as they are showing.
        It only would have been surprising if no correlation would have been found among cases with same (and very much significative) hours in brace, but is not what they said. Are you sure it’s not what was done in the other studies? Anyway is not surprising that in some cases enough hours in brace may be enough to be efficient, but not happens the same with great reduction and few time in brace. Also Risser and degrees has to do. The distribution of fhese variables (also (real) flexibility) should not to be the same in every study. Anyway I think it's right because theory behind braces and there is not evidence showing is not right as I know.

        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
        You can't just KNOW it. You have to SHOW it. That's what separates evidence from faith.

        In order to be absolutely sure of course you have to have a proof, but if you have to take a decision and you have not all the information needed to consider it a proof, you must to use your brain and think for yourself and try to arrive to the most reasonable conclusion with the insufficient resources you have. Is clear that you don't need to do that. Good for you!.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by flerc View Post
          In order to be absolutely sure of course you have to have a proof, but if you have to take a decision and you have not all the information needed to consider it a proof, you must to use your brain and think for yourself and try to arrive to the most reasonable conclusion with the insufficient resources you have. Is clear that you don't need to do that. Good for you!.
          It's clear that you are NOT the one who would have to wear a tighter, more restrictive brace for little demonstrated purpose.

          The clearest correlations in this game tend to be between more draconian bracing among those in no danger of ever having to wear a brace. Exceptions to this occur among people who actually wore braces as children of course... they tend NOT to be draconian.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #80
            Here's another way to explain the lack of correlation between "success" and flexibility and in-brace correction...

            There are likely other factors like hours of brace wear in addition to unquantified (and potentially unquantifiable*) amenability to bracing that might explain the lack of correlation. The ability to predict which curves progress and which don't attests to the fact that there is much left unknown even after decades of study. Known unknowns and unknown unknowns abound. It is unethical to make children more uncomfortable than they need be without damn good proof. It seems to always come back to, "some curves never progress doing nothing and some curves progress no matter what you do."

            *potentially unquantifiable should not be confuses with not real. For example, the number of birds in flight over the entire world is a number but we can never know that number. If the biochemistry is complex enough, IS may be in this category. Evolution has been happening for ~3.5 billion years and humans are just one example of a later form that is still extant. Ninety-nine percent of all species over that 3.5 billions have gone extinct. Scoliosis isn't impacting our extinction rate despite being long-standing. There is nothing in this situation that "owes" us a quantifiable answer. I think people would struggle less with natural "evil" like disease if they could accept this reality.
            Last edited by Pooka1; 10-16-2013, 10:18 AM.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              It is unethical to make children more uncomfortable than they need be without damn good proof.
              If studies are showing that braces are unecessary used in a high percentage, they also shows greater chances to avoid surgery using it.
              Both studies conclusions should to be taken into account for parents evaluating the convenience of using braces or not . What would be really unethical is to leave parents without this non surgical option to avoid surgery.
              If what you want is a proof and not only evidence of succesful percentages, you should to expand your limited science version and think in principles, causes, effects, laws, reasonings.. in order to conform a solid theory DEMONSTRATING why braces works. Surely the only way to do a brace really different to those used thousands of years ago.

              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              *potentially unquantifiable should not be confuses with not real. For example, the number of birds in flight over the entire world is a number but we can never know that number. If the biochemistry is complex enough, IS may be in this category. Evolution has been happening for ~3.5 billion years and humans are just one example of a later form that is still extant. Ninety-nine percent of all species over that 3.5 billions have gone extinct. Scoliosis isn't impacting our extinction rate despite being long-standing. There is nothing in this situation that "owes" us a quantifiable answer. I think people would struggle less with natural "evil" like disease if they could accept this reality.
              Good for you again, who seems having not the need to think in these scoliosis issues in order to take decisions, but you should to think that ESTÄ MAL CONTAR LA PLATA DELANTE DE LOS POBRES.
              Anyway if you have something important to say about reduction/time in brace, real (or not) flexibility, bone modeling/remodeling laws, antigravity effects, physical laws, geometry considerations, tissues properties.. I'm all ears

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by flerc View Post
                ESTÄ MAL CONTAR LA PLATA DELANTE DE LOS POBRES.
                ESTÄ MAL folk science.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #83
                  You may be sure that if I'm only doing 'folk science' as you say is just only because I have not enough money.. I'm interested in solve a personal problem, not in intelectual disquisitions, I have not time for that.
                  But do you are worry thinking that bracing is an unethical practice? Ok, if you prove that (even being so primitive as they are) there is not any logical reason to be reasonably sure that they increments the possibility to avoid surgery, I will also believe the same, at least about these current braces.
                  As we only may talk about known evidence and not about principles, tell me in what way I may not see this

                  'In the analysis that included both groups, the rate of treatment success was 72 percent among children with bracing, compared with 48 percent among those under observation. The benefit increased the longer bracing was worn. More than 90 percent of the children who were successfully treated wore their braces more than 13 hours a day.'

                  as a statistical 'proof' about the effectiveness of braces as researchers says, believing of course it is a serious study.
                  Do you believe in the existence of an unknow factor stronger than brace? But if it was the case, why it was so uneven among braced/not braced cases? Do you know about studies where observed cases were more succesful than braced cases? How many?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by flerc View Post
                    If studies are showing that braces are unecessary used in a high percentage, they also shows greater chances to avoid surgery using it.
                    Perhaps every child should be braced from age 10-15, just to make sure they don't get scoliosis. I mean, why not, right? Surely this would help decrease surgeries, and parents and children would be happy to comply because they would be decreasing their risk of needing surgery, however low their risk was to begin with. Isn't it worth anything to decrease the risk of surgery?
                    Gayle, age 50
                    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
                    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
                    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


                    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
                    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
                    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

                    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by flerc View Post
                      You may be sure that if I'm only doing 'folk science' as you say is just only because I have not enough money..
                      It's not so much lack of money that distinguishes folk scientists... it the COMPLETE and TOTAL lack of any relevant training or understanding of the subject. It is no crime to NOT be an IS researcher when your child has IS. This point needs to be made. Google "scholars" who do a five minute google search, read (and misunderstand) a few abstracts, are not in a position to move the ball down the field. And that is not their fault. Unfortunately, the less they know the more they think they know. That train is heading the wrong way.

                      But if it was the case, why it was so uneven among braced/not braced cases?
                      First of all, it is only ~25% over and above the W&W group that were <50* at maturity. Not "so uneven". This number is not dissimilar to previous studies and so is not groundbreaking.

                      Second, there is a large over treatment with brace. Most kids who wore the brace did so needlessly.

                      Third, we don't know what the final curve measurements were and it is curious they did not publish those immediately if they looked supportive of the claim. Unless most were <30* (which few of them likely were), they have no real reason to think the bracing avoided surgery in their life. And it is questionable if any kid would wear a brace if it wasn't a guarantee to avoid surgery for life, not just until they were 15 years old.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                        First of all, it is only ~25% over and above the W&W group that were <50* at maturity. Not "so uneven". This number is not dissimilar to previous studies and so is not groundbreaking.
                        And how explain your not only limited but also ignorant, as it seems to be, science version this difference, mainly when it is similar to other studies as you are saying? This is what I asked you

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by flerc View Post
                          And how explain your not only limited but also ignorant, as it seems to be, science version this difference, mainly when it is similar to other studies as you are saying? This is what I asked you
                          Do you understand the concept of having a control group? What do you think the ~50% "success" rate in the control group means?
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            That this is ~ the chance without brace.
                            What do you think the ~75% "success" rate in the braced group means?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemis...trol-Group.htm
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Do you know what I mean by "~"?
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X