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Thread: Conflict

  1. #1
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    Conflict

    Conflict: A strange title for a post, huh?
    This morning I was thinking about the last year and what I have learned. My love and devotion to my daughter compelled me to try to understand the issues surrounding scoliosis; in particular, the issues surrounding scoliosis bracing.

    I haven’t participated much recently in the forum but I do check in and read up from time to time. I see there is still some “conflict” and occasionally people contrast this forum with SSO where the focus is more on support.

    But this is the thing: when it comes to trying to understand an issue I want (need) to hear BOTH sides of an argument elucidated. You really don’t get that in a “support” type of environment. You need to have people passionate about their views, respectfully presenting and supporting them. The “respectful” part becomes a challenge, especially if one is “passionate” about their viewpoint. Personally, I would prefer both, but given the choice, I would choose the passion over the respect.

    So, at the end of the day, this being the holiday season and all, I would hope that people on both sides of various debates recognize the contributions that each opposing side has made to support our understanding of the issues. Hopefully we might work to enhance the “respect” part without dampening the “passion”. I am certainly grateful for everyone here and I wish you all a joyous holiday.

    I will leave you with a gift: Here is a link to an excellent 500 page online book about “Clinical Trials”. It touches on many relevant topics, including issues related to RCT’s, medical ethics, preference trials, biostatistics etc. It is very readable and you might consider bookmarking or downloading it.


    Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah – in our house we are fortunate enough to celebrate both the miracle of the Hanukkah lights and the miracle of the virgin birth. No conflict, just understanding and respect: the only challenge is making sure the menorah doesn’t catch the Christmas tree on fire.

  2. #2
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    CD,

    Thanks for the link.

    In re the conflict here, I see it not as "passion versus respect." I see it as "factual versus counterfactual" and "skeptical versus credulous" and ultimately "science versus faith" which are not compatible in other than a trivial sense.

    I disagree that there is much actual "debate" when a debate requires two sides of some same thing. There are no two sides of many things discussed here just as evolution versus creationism isn't a debate because science and religion are not the same thing. It's why Dawkins refuses to debate creationists... what could possibly be the point? What is believed on no evidence can be dismissed on no evidence. That isn't a debate; it's a rout.

    Either the literature exists or it doesn't. Either something is known or it isn't. There is plenty of grey area and plenty that isn't known which can be debated and we have seen some of that here. Some here have asked some very pertinent questions that have made me think and especially rethink certain things. To participate and indeed to ever learn, you have to be open to new ideas. You have to be open to new evidence at all times. There are advocates here who don't appear to be open to other ideas. Dogma has no place in discussing medical conditions. And you have to actually understand what you are discussing. For example, creationists by definition don't understand any geological and biological evidence they present to support a 6,000 year old earth because a few billion year old earth and evolution are facts.

    But I don't see any of that as being "conflict." I see it as misunderstanding the process of how people actually know things.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-25-2009 at 10:36 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #3
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    I'm not sure. Going back through the old posts, I saw someone pretty much chased off who was reporting on results of their spinecor brace (a young skater). That discussion didn't seem to involve fact vs. faith. Or, maybe, it was mostly faith on both sides.

    But I do think the exercise and scoliosis discussions have been more passion and less heat recently. That's been extremely helpful, for me, as I work through some complicated issues.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I'm not sure. Going back through the old posts, I saw someone pretty much chased off who was reporting on results of their spinecor brace (a young skater). That discussion didn't seem to involve fact vs. faith. Or, maybe, it was mostly faith on both sides.
    That was yet another case of belief vice evidence. And it had identifiable counterfactual elements. That helps nobody who is interested in factual matter. That said, I acknowledge there are plenty of people here who are not interested in the facts, when known, for various reasons.

    Would you disagree with an alchemist being pretty much chased off from a group about chemistry?

    How about a young girl threatening other children on a group with ignorant robotically programmed rants about fire and brimstone?

    Are there really two sides to these things?

    I suggest most of the conflict is between factual and counterfactual material which is misinterpreted as "debate" just like creationists think they are actually debating something when they are not.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #5
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    hdugger is correct.
    Sharon, you are mistaken.

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure I see that. If someone has a better experience with one brace over another, I think that's a fact, even if a limited one. There was "faith" on the other side that she was a shill, but I don't believe that was based on fact. She seemed to be mixed up about surgery, but my similarly-aged son is equally mixed up about the facts of surgery.

    I guess I felt that there were facts on her side, and it would have been possible to get to them with a gentler approach. Instead, the conversation was pretty much shut down without learning anything.

    That's just not how I see science working. Science is inquisitive, not adamant. It wants to learn new things. This discussion, OTOH, seemed adamant and not inquisitive.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    This discussion, OTOH, seemed adamant and not inquisitive.
    Similarly, Dawkins is routinely accused of being strident when he is simply trying to make sense.

    Apparently some things simply can't be criticized not because they are right but because people won't have it.

    That is the essence of not being inquisitive.

    There is science and there is everything else when it comes to ways of knowing things.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    hdugger is correct.
    Sharon, you are mistaken.
    Well I guess that's put to bed then!
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #9
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    Merry Christmas and Hanukkah, CD. Nice to hear from you and thanks for the gift. Maybe someday I'll get through it. Best to you and yours. Hope you have a wonderful New year.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    I am certainly grateful for everyone here and I wish you all a joyous holiday.

    Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah Ė in our house we are fortunate enough to celebrate both the miracle of the Hanukkah lights and the miracle of the virgin birth. No conflict, just understanding and respect: the only challenge is making sure the menorah doesnít catch the Christmas tree on fire.
    I wish you and your family a safe and happy holiday season. Keep that menorah away from the tree!

    Mele Kalikimaka! (that's the way you say "Merry Christmas" in Hawaii; sorry I don't know how you'd say "Happy Hanukkah" in Hawaii)

    Mary Lou
    Mom to Jamie age 21-diagnosed at age 12-spinal fusion 12/7/2004-fused from T3-L2; and Tracy age 19, mild Scoliosis-diagnosed at age 18.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Well I guess that's put to bed then!
    LOL

    Happy holidays everyone!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Well I guess that's put to bed then!
    Sorry I didnt have time to elaborate.
    Yes, I feel the issue is indeed put to bed.

    See my post in the thread here where I note:

    Danielle pleads in her last post

    I am real, the post is real, my results are real, and don't call me a liar!!!
    Do we know that she is not Dr Deutchman pretending to be an ice skater scoliosis patient? No, but you donít know that Iím a concerned dad. Letís give folks the benefit of the doubt. You could have helped educate her and she could have helped educate us.

    And, by the way, it looks to me like Danielle is real, her post is real, her results are real (at least she thinks they are) and she is not a liar. I suppose she could be a paid actor, but I like to believe in the goodness of humanity (noticeably present on the surgery threads but largely absent on the non-surgical threads).

    You tube testamonial
    Further on in that thread I dispelled some of the critisism leveled against her regarding the "measuring Cobb to 10's of a degree". I showed two xrays published in the European Spine Journal showing Cobb measured to the tenth's.

    So, yes, I feel Hdugger is right. I feel that intimidating this girl (using what people believed was good science) was a very dark moment in this forums history.
    When Hdugger notes:
    That discussion didn't seem to involve fact vs. faith. Or, maybe, it was mostly faith on both sides.
    She nailed it.

    Merry Christmas to all

  13. #13
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    CD,

    Happy Holidays!

    I'm going to agree with you that the skater and some others should have been "ushered back into reality" in a less jarring fashion let's say.

    My take on that thread is that people were just fed up with the sheer mass of chiro nonsense that makes its way onto the group through the mouths of innocent patients like that skater. In that case, it seems impossible that she dreamed up 12 rods all by herself. It seems more likely the chiro was ignorantly trying to scare her about surgery. We see numerous examples in real time of this on Fixscoliosis's web site. It is the rule rather than the exception with non-evidence-based chiros it seems which is the vast swath of them as far as I can tell.

    There has always been a conflict between the reality and the wish and this group is no exception. Life can be tragic and people cope as they can. There is no a priori reason why life should be fair and, as we see, it isn't.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #14
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    Count me in among those who learned much this year. Thank you for the posting CD - a valuable and treasured one. And at the end of the day, I have learned that we all really do have more in common that we may have once imagined. My father passed away on the 18th. Such making me far more sensitive to these things than I may otherwise have been. Wishing all sincerely, one of the happiest of holidays, towards a collectively desired & shared relief.

  15. #15
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    Hi Mamamax
    condolences on your loss...i know the feeling...may you carry his memory in your heart...

    jess

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