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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ballet Mom View Post
    Remember, there's a reason if "most research studies are false". I wonder what that is....hmmmm.
    (Lack of controlled studies largely confined to the medical literature... unheard of in other scientific fields.)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #32
      Dingo still childishly calling me names...

      ... and being critical of Tonibunny too who is just trying to stop the deception.

      Dingo writes on another forum... "Kooka (as per usual) went bonkers and ToniBunny jumped in on her side to help out."

      Very "adult" and "mature," Dingo ("as per usual").
      Last edited by Pooka1; 11-21-2009, 08:04 PM.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #33
        Moving Right Along

        The Dingo Study does seem better received elsewhere: http://www.scoliosis-support.org/sho...?t=8843&page=2

        Some entertaining name calling going on over here ... and still, no one can duplicate (or even imitate) the Dingo Study.

        Score one for the alleged lay guy :-)

        Comment


        • #34
          Tricks vice "Tricks"

          Originally posted by Ballet Mom View Post
          Sharon,



          Since we are discussing "research deception", I am quite interested in your response to the scandal regarding the "science" behind Anthropogenic Global Warming and the hacking of Britain's Climate Research Unit. I do recall being called something to the effect of being a denier regarding AGW when I mentioned that I thought AGW was propaganda. Sounds like that's exactly what it is....whatever the party line is to promote its agenda of global governance.

          For those unaware of what's happened:

          http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a...hadley_hacked/

          http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ja...lobal-warming/

          Or should we just chalk it up to the old "most research results are false" and move along quietly....?
          Even though the subject of AGW is way off topic, Balletmom is exactly right that the issue with these hacked emails is one of potential deception and that is very relevant to this thread.

          Those emails I read were sufficiently alarming to me that I dug further. Here is a site that includes a rational explanation for the apparent "hidden data" graph written by "somewhat" of a third party (see reference).

          http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoub...cience_ema.php

          You will note the explanation of "tricks" and it is what I stated earlier... something is not a trick when the data are "hidden" in plain view and a full explanation is included. The way I use the word "trick" when graphing some data let's say would be alarming to lay folks when it is not deceptive at all. It's just scientists jargon.

          You will also note mention of the lack of evidence of a worldwide conspiracy which is another point I made earlier. Some of these points are obvious and you don't have to be in the climate game to surmise them. But other things are just going to be almost impossible to understand without being in the climate game. I would need to put in several weeks worth of reading to understand what exactly is going on with these emails, something I won't be doing. The truth is likely at neither end but somewhere in the middle. My guess is the underlying science will stand but some people are going to get black eyes for perhaps massaging the data a little too much in their irrational exuberance.

          And I still say the Feds who destroys documents before the seven year hold period ended (or whatever it is) or the Feds who did anything to avoid a FOIA should be canned whether or not the underlying science stands. There should be no reason to avoid a FOIA even though it can entail huge amounts of work because the requester pays for the expense as far as I know. You may have to bring people on to answer the request but it's paid for as far as I know.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mamamax View Post
            Some entertaining name calling going on over here ... and still, no one can duplicate (or even imitate) the Dingo Study.
            Mamamax, the "work" in question entails two division calculations of questionable significance. How long does it take you to do two division problems? Do you have a calculator?

            If he presented it as simply two division calculations instead of padding it with verbiage that would only be necessary if it was publishable, would you be drooling over it so much? Can you ask yourself this?

            You need to recognize form versus substance. Boil it down. Your constantly asking to respond in the same "format" is not going to help matters. A fancy format isn't going to change deficient substance.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • #36
              Case in point - I rest my case.

              Comment


              • #37
                Well I see I walked into that.

                But don't you see that you were fooled by form and didn't boil it down to the substance which is two questionable division calculations?

                How long would it take a person to critique those two calculations do you think? How long if they just wrote it versus put it in some particular format? Does the format matter? Should it?

                Why don't you critique those two calculations and see how long it takes?
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #38
                  ok - I'll walk into this :-)

                  I'm not going to spend my time on the mathematical calculation because - math ain't my thing. If a mathematical error was made in the Dingo study, it wouldn't be the first such error made in any study.

                  The Dingo Study was better than good - and as I understand it, involved hours of work. The presentation was the result of countless hours of research and formatted as well as any published study I've been reading over the past year. Format is important and I guess the reason why many journals have format guidelines.

                  I like such studies - they are constructed without explosive emotion - giving me a chance to focus on the issues at hand and further research on my own.

                  When there are inaccuracies in any study - I look forward to the rebuttal for the same reasons.

                  Deception was not the intention and as it turns out - Dingo was quite surprised to discover that we didn't understand he was in fact posting his own study. I find the resulting awareness of all that - enchanting - and impressive.

                  Sharon - upthread you expressed an opinion that the Dingo Study would have taken only a few minutes to compose. If that's true, then the same should be true for a rebuttal. Was hoping to see that on my birthday ;-)
                  Last edited by mamamax; 11-22-2009, 10:14 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Here's a birthday present for you....

                    The thread on SSO was either pulled or asked to be removed by the OP.

                    I disagree with removing that thread if the mods pulled it which I don't think is the case.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I see that the Dingo Study has been reposted without previous history:

                      http://www.scoliosis-support.org/showthread.php?t=8854

                      Pity the history is gone - there was more support than angst in that thread, from the mods as well. Maybe Dingo requested the update. That would be my bet.

                      Also see another is interested in a rebuttal - haha, I am not the only one!
                      Last edited by mamamax; 11-22-2009, 11:01 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I'm titch, site owner and one of the admins across at SSo.

                        I pulled the thread and asked Dingo to repost, with it clear at the outset that he was the author, so that we could re-open discussion of it. Previous experience of contentious posts suggests that while matters are normally resolved within a page or two (as was the case here, as Dingo posted publically that the study was by him, at the first opportunity he got), many people come late to the party and dealing with their posts (either supportive or antagonistic) actually prevents discussion of the informational aspects of the original post. Hope that actually makes sense, I've had to take a fair few painkillers today as my back is murderous.

                        Anyway. Point is, it was not pulled to cover up controversy or anything like that, but rather so that if there is discussion to be had about it, we are able to sensibly discuss things such as how applicable the figures derived from the Canadian census are, rather than spend the next 2 weeks intermittently pointing out to people that there is no longer any controversy over ownership and that it was a big misunderstanding. It's to keep things productive
                        aka Titch

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Hi Titch - Nice to meet you. Thank you for the clarification which makes perfect sense. Sorry to hear you are a little under the weather today (pain wise) and hope you feel much better very soon.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            update

                            I just updated my analysis and included a comparison of 1st degree females vs. males. No surprise females had a significantly higher risk of Scoliosis compared to males.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Japanese study comparison

                              How many cases of Scoliosis among siblings would Dr. Moreau need to have missed to match his sample up with this study?

                              Idiopathic scoliosis in twins studied by DNA fingerprinting

                              We investigated 21 pairs of twins for zygosity and idiopathic scoliosis. DNA fingerprinting confirmed that 13 pairs were monozygotic and eight were dizygotic. There was concordance for idiopathic scoliosis in 92.3% of monozygotic and 62.5% of dizygotic twins.
                              Dizygotic twins commonly known as fraternal twins are genetically equivalent to brothers and sisters. They are 1st degree relatives.

                              In Dr. Moreau's sample 2 siblings out of approximately 20.5 had a spinal deformity. (2 / 20.5 - 9.8%) That's a far cry from the 62.5% found in the Japanese study mentioned above. How many cases of Scoliosis would Dr. Moreau need to have have missed to bring my analysis into line with the Japanese results? 11 missed cases. Instead of 2 cases in roughly 20, the number would have needed to be 13 cases in 20.

                              13 cases may have matched Dr. Moreau's sample up with the Japanese study but they would have pushed his work completely out of line with earlier studies that used direct physical examination.
                              (A Genetic Survey of Idiopathic Scoliosis in Boston, Massachusetts)
                              This study found that among first degree relatives there was a 15.8% chance of a 10 degree curve and an 11.1% chance of 20 degree curve. Those results were nearly identical to what was found in Dr. Moreau's sample of children with severe scoliosis.
                              Last edited by Dingo; 11-22-2009, 07:16 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                                (Lack of controlled studies largely confined to the medical literature... unheard of in other scientific fields.)
                                Well, that's the first I've heard that your comments about most research results being false was confined to medical research!

                                No, actually I was going for the old.....follow the money...


                                i.e.:

                                Just in case you still think Jones is just some no-name boffin toiling pitifully in academia's climate change coal mines, one file in the exposed CRU records reveals that he has collected 13.7 million in grants since 1990.
                                http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225801796426

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