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Thread: seen ORthopedic today :)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    “Never heard of the SpineCor”? That suggests to me that this person is not current with the medical literature. I mean, come on. You can’t help but “hear” about the SpineCor if scoliosis is your speciality. You might not believe in it, but you would have at least heard about it.
    sorry for the confusion, I jumbled my post...its her pediatrician that didn't hear of spinecor not the orthopedic surgeon.

    The orthopedic surgeon is top dog at Children's hospital, and I consulted with several of his patients. They all say he is the best in his field with Scoliosis.
    I talked with those who have had surgery and had great results with his treatment. in other words he comes highly recommended.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mom_15 View Post
    I understand that I may be interrupting a possibly interesting argument between BalletMom and Pooka, but just in case someone on here doesn't know ... We have had success with the Spinecor brace in idiopathic AIS. My (now 15 year old) daughter's curve has decreased from 48 (out of brace) to 24 (out of brace). And she experienced a growth spurt. (We also do exercises and see a chiropractor regularly.) We experience the opposit results in the Boston Brace.

    I agree completely with YSMV and think that this may be the truest statement that I have ever seen anywhere on this forum!

    Hey which one did you go to for fitting...we are looking at spinecor too

    And concerned dad...thanks for the site and the doc is listed under it...he took several radiographs and it was a solid profile...boy you all know your stuff.

    Curious~why did her lumbar curve go down 3.5 degrees? and her thoracic curve reduced .5...so basically the top curve stayed the same...the lower curve improved...how does that happen?
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballet Mom View Post
    Please note number 42 also:




    Best evidence there is, Risser Zero, premenarchal, and three to four inches of rapid growth. Please explain how the brace didn't work Pooka. Scientifically.
    So out of brace with spinecor...it was reduced? Really

    that is the kind of evidence I need to see more of!!!
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    So out of brace with spinecor...it was reduced? Really

    that is the kind of evidence I need to see more of!!!

    Hi Bigbluefrog, sorry that your thread got hijacked a bit.

    Anyhow, my daughter wore the Charleston Bending brace and is currently in a custom night time brace that is similar to a Providence brace. She has never been in a Spinecore brace and I have to say I don't believe the Spinecore could have possibly held my daughter's curves.

    Any reduction in small amounts of these Cobb angles measurements could be due just to the different measurements. For instance, your curves were first read by one person, and then by the orthopedist, I assume with new x-rays. Those are all within the margin of error due to just positioning during the x-ray, or the person choosing the points from which to measure. Anything within five degrees could possibly be due to measurement error...possible, perhaps probable, but not necessarily so. So it could be that your daughter's and my daughter's spine didn't actually change at all.

  5. #35
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    I'm never sure this kind of thing is helpful . . . but, yes, I do feel that you have the same kind of "believer" intensity towards non-surgical methods *not* working that you suggested the Dingo has towards them working. I find most of your posts on other topics very helpful, but in this arena your passion often seems to be cloudying the waters.

    More importantly, as they mentioned during the last dust up over at the Scoliosis Support forum, when someone has this kind of heat against certain topics, it makes it very intimidating for new parents to come in and talk about their experiences. That's a shame. This is a critical time in those parents' lives, and the constant heat on these topics may be keeping a child from methods that could help them.

    I don't intend this as a slap. I find most of your posts helpful and informative. But, you asked for some feedback, and I thought it would be helpful to offer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I ask the jury... is this my intention in any way, shape or form?

    I'll sit back and read any answers that might be forthcoming.

    I might ask you to post evidence for this statement but you and I have different definitions of "evidence." Mine are scientific.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I'm never sure this kind of thing is helpful . . . but, yes, I do feel that you have the same kind of "believer" intensity towards non-surgical methods *not* working that you suggested the Dingo has towards them working. I find most of your posts on other topics very helpful, but in this arena your passion often seems to be cloudying the waters.

    More importantly, as they mentioned during the last dust up over at the Scoliosis Support forum, when someone has this kind of heat against certain topics, it makes it very intimidating for new parents to come in and talk about their experiences. That's a shame. This is a critical time in those parents' lives, and the constant heat on these topics may be keeping a child from methods that could help them.

    I don't intend this as a slap. I find most of your posts helpful and informative. But, you asked for some feedback, and I thought it would be helpful to offer it.
    Okay thanks for the feedback.

    I did find it helpful.

    ETA: BTW, I don't disagree with your characterization of my "zeal" in pointing out the lack of high quality evidence for non-surgical methods. I think it is obvious that most new folks and even many experienced folks don't understand the extreme difference in the level of evidence. And so we have open charges that the BRAIST researchers are unethical. That is a symptom of the lack of understanding of the various evidence cases and is unfair.

    I am a researcher though not in a medical field and I do take great exception to people who don't know the evidence cases accusing honest researchers of nefarious acts. And I really take exception to lay people coming on here claiming this is simple and that they have solved key medical dilemmas simply by quote mining from near-random papers. The inescapable implication of those posts is that these researchers are clearly too dumb to see the answer right under their nose. I find those comments extremely irritating and ignorant about how research works. And medical research, where you are so restricted in being able to do controlled studies, is an order of magnitude harder than other fields. I have learned to cut these people some slack and I think others need to learn the same thing.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 10-16-2009 at 06:03 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #37
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    Ok I understand the difference in measurements may be the one reading and measuring...but the visual of the two were definitely different....

    I would post her xrays online...but I am not sure how to do that...anyone?

    the first you can see the lumbar is more curve and the hips were off....now granted I really don't want to get to confident...because I was not in the room with the first xray and it may be inaccurate.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    Ok I understand the difference in measurements may be the one reading and measuring...but the visual of the two were definitely different....

    I would post her xrays online...but I am not sure how to do that...anyone?

    the first you can see the lumbar is more curve and the hips were off....now granted I really don't want to get to confident...because I was not in the room with the first xray and it may be inaccurate.
    There was a Spinecor article that showed a kid could produce an 11* reduction in her measured Cobb angle simply by standing funny.

    If you shot a radiograph, told the kid to walk up and down the hallway, and then shot another radiograph in less than 5 minutes, and had the same person measure both curves, I would not bet even $100 the two measurements would be within 5* necessarily.

    This isn't an exact science by a long shot.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    so according to you surgery is the only way?
    Surgery is the only proven way to do certain things. It is not the only proven way to do other things.

    What about the success of those who chose braces and exercise and have seen improvements?
    Bracing, as in Spinecor for pain in adults and PT for the same has been shown to be effective. The orthopedic community, on the whole outside of the inventors, doesn't not appear to accept the efficacy of Spinecor bracing to permanently stop curve progression in AIS or adults as far as I know. There are now at least two studies that show Spinecor is not effective in the AIS crowd. Thus the ONLY papers at present that shown efficacy of Spinecor are all written by the Spinecor inventors as far as I know... someone correct me if I'm wrong. Until people without a financial stake start replicating their results, I don't think the orthopedic community will adopt Spinecor in any great numbers.

    Some in the orthopedic community think and believe bracing is effective for some segment of the AIS population but I don't think you will find anyone who says the literature contains good evidence for that.

    The jury is still out on bracing...hence the BRAIST study with an observation group is considered ethical by those familiar with the literature. Those who are unfamiliar with the literature falsely accuse the BRAIST researchers of being unethical.

    I have read through this forum, and I get the feeling there is no right way...sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't..
    Totally agree.

    It is what it is...I imagine most of us would be honest and say no to surgery if we had a choice...the more conservative route would be brace and exercise.
    Totally agree. My one kid tried bracing and I would have supported her in that no matter what I thought because bracing isn't quacky like some other things I could name. It might work and I think it will eventually be shown to work in some relatively small fraction of AIS cases.

    I had a friend tell me chiropractor care could heal my dd of diabetes type 1 and scoliosis...mmm can I get that in writing with a money back guarantee?
    That's really a shame how some chiros give all of them a back name.

    Quackwatch has a huge section on chiros (Chirobase) as you can well imagine but they also say some are ethical. There is a group of "evidence-based" chiros that are the only hope going forward for that profession.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 10-18-2009 at 02:51 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballet Mom View Post
    Please note number 42 also:

    Best evidence there is, Risser Zero, premenarchal, and three to four inches of rapid growth. Please explain how the brace didn't work Pooka. Scientifically.
    Check this out. It might answer your question.

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...8&d=1255882592

    Clearly you can't go by Risser. Note the jump form 0+ to 4.

    How old was she when you got the first reading from the orthopedic surgeon (NOT the clinic or whatever)? I think you said she was older compared to some other kid here.

    Also most of the rapid growth could have been in her legs. There is no set pattern. Her spine may not have grown much during that period.

    Last, recall Pam made it to 50 as a JIS case and STAYED there until her surgery at 39. Given that, it is not shocking to suggest your daughter reached the 35* (or whatever) any time before that first data point from the surgeon. You can't tell from the data in hand when the curve stopped. Like CD's daughter, it may not have moved at all whether or not your daughter was wearing a brace. Just because she was wearing one, you automatically attribute the stability to the brace.

    But as someone else so wisely said... at this point you can't ever show when a brace is working... you can only show when it isn't. This goes to the large error bars on this stuff, sometimes encompassing nearly the entire range.

    I just hope you consider these points when telling new folks you have proof the brace halted your daughter's curve. It's potentially misleading otherwise.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #41
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    Pooka-

    Clearly you can't go by Risser
    I have talked about the need for orthopedic surgeons to use the hand x-rays instead of Risser. It is, however, the measurement used by all three of the highly distinguished orthopedic surgeons my daughter has been evaluated by and so I posted it. It does tell you that it didn't read at a higher Risser number than zero.

    How old was she when you got the first reading from the orthopedic surgeon (NOT the clinic or whatever)?
    Twelve, a very normal age to be diagnosed with scoliosis, and by the way, the first measurement from the school clinic was from an orthopedic surgeon.

    I think you said she was older compared to some other kid here.
    Really, what the heck does that have to do with anything? And no, I said no such thing...you're making things up again.

    Also most of the rapid growth could have been in her legs. There is no set pattern. Her spine may not have grown much during that period.
    My daughter has had very long legs for a long time...that's why she's still in ballet. If my daughter's torso hadn't grown in the last three to four inches of growth, she would now look very odd...and she doesn't. In fact, I have been noticing in the past month that her torso is actually relatively longer than what it has been in the past...very typical from what I've seen of ballet dancers reaching their high school years. They have long legs and then with their final growth in high school, some suddenly don't have a professional ballet body anymore because their torso is suddenly longer in relation to their legs. It's amazing to watch. Fortunately for her, so far her legs are still long enough compared to her body to still be in the running....but we'll see.

    Last, recall Pam made it to 50 as a JIS case and STAYED there until her surgery at 39.
    Exactly what does Pam's case have to do with my daughter? Really.

    Given that, it is not shocking to suggest your daughter reached the 35* (or whatever) any time before that first data point from the surgeon. You can't tell from the data in hand when the curve stopped. Like CD's daughter, it may not have moved at all whether or not your daughter was wearing a brace. Just because she was wearing one, you automatically attribute the stability to the brace.
    I think it's pretty obvious that the size of scoliosis curves are a function of growth in kids. I seriously doubt the curves just stop out of the blue, unless they aren't growing at that moment. The fact that my daughter grew three to four inches rapidly suggests that the brace did indeed stop the curve from increasing in size. All studies point to the fact that my daughter was indeed likely to have progressed to surgery without a brace...and I truly believe that to be the case.

    I just hope you consider these points when telling new folks you have proof the brace halted your daughter's curve. It's potentially misleading otherwise.
    Those are your words.....and I truly believe that it is you that is trying to mislead people.

    And by the way, the only reason I am still reading and responding to these comments of yours is to make sure that you aren't misleading people with every single post that you make.
    Last edited by Ballet Mom; 10-19-2009 at 06:19 PM.

  12. #42
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    By the way, I noticed someone on this board recently that I believe experienced an increase in curve in the double digits, within a two month time frame according to their signature. Perhaps this person could share their experience with a curve that progressed so signifcantly and so quickly.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post

    Also most of the rapid growth could have been in her legs. There is no set pattern. Her spine may not have grown much during that period.
    I think that is incorrect, both from my experience observing ballet students, and in the information I have managed to collect in my own "research".

    I am posting a quote out of the Journal of Pediatric Orthopedics entitled Growth in Pediatric Orthopaedics by Alain Dimeglio, M.D.:

    Journal of Pediatric Orthopaedics
    21:549–555 © 2001 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc., Philadelphia

    During puberty, standing height increases by approximately
    1 cm per month. At the onset of puberty, boys
    have 14% (± 1%) of their remaining standing height to
    grow. This is approximately 22.5 cm (± 1 cm) made up
    of 13 cm in sitting height and 9.5 cm in subischial leg
    length. Girls have 12% (± 1%) of their standing height to
    grow. This is approximately 20.5 cm (± 1 cm) made up
    of 12 cm in sitting height and 8.5 cm in subischial leg
    length (12,34–36) (Figs. 2,3).

    Growth rate peaks during puberty between 13 and 15
    years of bone age in boys and 11 and 13 years of bone
    age in girls. By the time girls and boys pass bone ages of
    13 and 15, respectively, lower limb growth comes virtually
    to a standstill, with all remaining growth (4.5 cm)
    taking place in sitting height
    (12,34–36).
    I can't post the whole article because it is a PDF file and I can't find a link anymore to the article...who knows where I picked it up. But I think this clearly shows what I have seen in the ballet students, i.e. in the ninth grade some of the ballet students suddenly look longer in the torso relative to their legs.

    I wish I could post the whole file because it's extremely interesting and has a couple of great charts. If you can get hold of it somehow, it is a good find.
    Last edited by Ballet Mom; 10-20-2009 at 10:45 AM.

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