Success! Down to 24 degrees!

[mamamax]

She said she would be headed for surgery absent Spinecor.

Do you believe there is evidence anyone:

a. avoided surgery with Spinecor,

and

b. avoided surgery ONLY through Spinecor and no other brace could have kept them out of surgery?

Kid15 was displaying something we all do here - a spirited reply to a spirited post ... let it go & admire her ability -

[Pooka1]

Kid15 was displaying something we all do here - a spirited reply to a spirited post ... let it go & admire her ability -

Okay I'll delete my posts.

[mamamax]

Surgeons in the US couldn't be bothered to use something that will help their patients?

Are they all just evil?

I can show you at least one surgeon who cares and I bet you would be hard-pressed to even find one that didn't care about their patients. Surgeons are the good guys in this game.

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.

[Pooka1]

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.

That is in fact calling them evil that they refuse necessary training to keep their patients off the operating table. I don't see how you can get around that.

They take all kinds of time to learn other things that will help their patients. There is some reason they are NOT taking the time to learn Spinecor. And by the way, how long do you think it takes to master Spinecor given that the inventors are still collecting preliminary data? I bet it is LESS time than anything else they train on.

So that is NOT the answer. Do you want to try again?

[Ballet Mom]

We disagree on the intelligence level of most people. I knew the difference between various doctor titles before I got out of High School -over 40 years ago

In the last 40 years of dealing with my condition, and discussing it with others, I’ve never come across someone who thought a chiropractor had the same level of title as an MD. You were not aware of this until after achieving a Master’s Degree? That’s a bit surprising. I still think most people are a little more savvy than you may be giving them credit for.

There is a LOT of misrepresented information on the Internet, and the professions where we find this is wide ranging and unlimited. Why would anyone decide to negatively classify an entire profession based on the actions of a few? Not good reasoning skills in my estimation, based upon an analytical thinking class I took in college.

And it does not appear to me that it is just a few chiropractors trying to engage in the practice of medicine by "treating" scoliosis.

The chiropractic profession is also not dismissed among the more traditional medical fields – as evidenced every day by medical doctors who often refer their patients to chiropractors for treatment. The professions often work together. I include my medical doctor/orthopedic specialist in on my Spinecor treatment (as do many other Spinecor patients) and in this way help expand the knowledge base for benefit of all.

The chiropractic profession finds a degree of respect many places – the well respected surgeon, Hans Weiss, MD, is in fact also a chiropractor (German school).

I applaud those chiropractic doctors like mine, who have made scoliosis treatment their specialty and field of focus – who have trained with Rivard and Colliard (surgeon inventors of the Spinecor brace, one of whom is an SRS member) and maintain a professional relationship with them; who have become Spinecor certified to a level where they can provide this bracing technique unsupervised; who conduct (and publish in the Scoliosis Journal) ongoing studies which duplicate the results of Rivard & Colliard; who have travelled several times to Germany to receive certification in Schroth; and who offer their education, knowledge, and expertise to many patients like myself throughout the United States every day. And, faulty reasoning skills (damning all based on the actions of a few) cannot negate the documented successes they (and other Spinecor certified chiropractors) achieve.

Just my humble opinion ;-)

My what a response. Immediately to the intelligence level are we? I don't think that knowledge that chiropractors call themselves doctors has anything to do with intelligence. Perhaps because you have dealt with scoliosis for all those years you have more exposure to all the different people who deal in various manners with spines. No one in my extended family has ever gone to a chiropractor, nor would they. And I don't think you should be assuming that most of the general population out there knows the difference just because you've had prior experience with chiros.

I certainly do believe if someone came in off the street to a Spine Care clinic and there was a person in a white coat calling himself Dr. SoandSo, and all his plaques and business cards had Dr. as the title, and he was telling me how he could treat their scoliosis with all these x-ray machines around the office, etc., I would certainly think they could very well believe he was a medical doctor. And I suspect it happens a lot. I doubt very much that the chiro is going to inform them that he is not.

I should think this could all easily be solved by having an independent review by an impartial orthopedic surgeon of the before and after x-rays (all out of brace for a specified number of hours) of these chiropractors' patients results and see if the results stand up for themselves. If they do, great, if not...the chiros should get out of the practice of medicine and focus on pain relief, which I believe is what they're supposed to be doing anyway.

[LindaRacine]

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.

The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

[Pooka1]

The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

Okay this response is better than mine.

I associate myself with this remark and will await mamamax's answer to Linda's response.

[mamamax]

The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

Linda is absolutely correct - in the US it would be standard practice for a surgeon to refer a patient to an orthotist for bracing treatment. There are orthotists in the US that are Spinecor certified and they are listed on the manufacturer's web site. This is not to say however, that US surgeons could not apply the technique (as the Canadian surgeons do). I'm seeing my orthopedic specialist next week - think I will ask his opinion on why US surgeons do not consider this - outside the obvious US protocol that has been in place in the past.

[mamamax]

Spinecor Rebuttal to the Wong Rebuttal

I would like to share some important information regarding why some cannot duplicate the same results as Rivard and Colliard (and others) regarding Spinecor. The following are the introductory comments published by Spinecor regarding the Wong study. Mind you - such professionals do not publish false statement because of a little thing called - law suits. And I have noticed no one is suing the Spinecor manufacturer ;-) Full text (providing in-depth details) is available at the manufacturer's web site.

It has come to our attention that an article entitled “The effect of rigid versus flexible spinal orthosis on the clinical efficacy and acceptance of the patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis” was published in the May 2008 issue of Spine Journal.[1] The SpineCorporation is the company responsible for production, supply, and training in the use of the SpineCor treatment system and we have serious concerns about the methods and validity of this study. We would like to point out two serious issues in the way in which this study was conducted and we believe these factors invalidate the data of the SpineCor treatment group and therefore the comparative results of the study.

1) The authors in this study and the facility at which patients were treated with SpineCor are not qualified to a proficient standard in the SpineCor treatment system. They should not be providing this treatment therapeutically to patients, let alone conducting research into its efficacy. We believe this to be seriously unethical and detrimental to the patients involved.

2) This treatment centre has not been supplied with enough initial SpineCor components to effectively brace 22 patients. They also have not received enough replacement components necessary to effectively maintain this amount of SpineCor braces. In reference to point 1, the SpineCor brace is a unique treatment system for idiopathic scoliosis that is unlike any other type of spinal orthosis ever developed[2]. It does not share the same treatment principles of 3-point pressure that rigid orthoses use and its use requires specific and extensive training. Training and an expertise in rigid bracing does not transfer to SpineCor; specific training and qualification is necessary. To attain the necessary skills to be a safe and effective SpineCor provider, candidates are required to attend an initial Phase 1 theory course. On completion of Phase 1, providers are eligible to complete a Phase 2 practical training which involves treating patients in front of a qualified SpineCor trainer. Distributors of the SpineCor brace are under a contractual obligation only to supply SpineCor braces and components to Phase 2 certified providers. To remain certified, practitioners must see a minimum number of patients using this system each year or recertification is necessary[3]. These strict systems are in place to ensure quality of treatment and consistency of results.

None of the authors of this paper are certified in SpineCor treatment nor have they ever received significant training in the SpineCor system. Some of the technicians working with these authors at the scoliosis clinic in Hong Kong have received basic introductory training, but they are not certified SpineCor providers and are not considered to have received training to a sufficient standard to use the SpineCor system without supervision.

[Pooka1]

Wong on Rivard on Wong

http://early-onset-scoliosis.com/Doc...ng%20Study.pdf

This is an abbreviated version of Wong's response. He responded at greater length somewhere else but I haven't found it yet. The extended response was posted on SSO I think.

Anyway, three of the Hong Kong study team were in fact certified to use Spinecor in direct contradiction to what Rivard said.

I think Weiss has also said he or his people were also qualified/certified but I don't recall that clearly.

And the Montreal guys are still winging this as I type. The are making this up as they go along and changing things when like good researchers. There is no "standard protocol" known to work; There is only the experimental protocol that they are standardizing on to see where it goes. This is a critical difference that I think people gloss over.

I suspect every brace inventor (and their company) will always claim that an independent researcher is somehow not doing it right if the results are not positive. At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

[Pooka1]

I'm seeing my orthopedic specialist next week - think I will ask his opinion on why US surgeons do not consider this

You're asking a chiro that? Can you also ask a surgeon who has decided against using Spinecor that also please?

I am writing down the answer and mailing it to myself...

[mamamax]

http://early-onset-scoliosis.com/Doc...ng%20Study.pdf

This is an abbreviated version of Wong's response. He responded at greater length somewhere else but I haven't found it yet. The extended response was posted on SSO I think.

Anyway, three of the Hong Kong study team were in fact certified to use Spinecor in direct contradiction to what Rivard said.

I think Weiss has also said he or his people were also qualified/certified but I don't recall that clearly.

And the Montreal guys are still winging this as I type. The are making this up as they go along and changing things when like good researchers. There is no "standard protocol" known to work; There is only the experimental protocol that they are standardizing on to see where it goes. This is a critical difference that I think people gloss over.

I suspect every brace inventor (and their company) will always claim that an independent researcher is somehow not doing it right if the results are not positive. At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

Check the dates - I believe the Wong's rebuttal comes first - Spinecor's comes second

[mamamax]

You're asking a chiro that? Can you also ask a surgeon who has decided against using Spinecor that also please?

I am writing down the answer and mailing it to myself...

No Sharon - I wrote: orthopedic specialist ... you know - the one I include in my treatment plan - the MD/surgeon who includes my chiropractor in my treatment. Boy - how many times to I have to say that?

[Pooka1]

Check the dates - I believe the Wong's rebuttal comes first - Spinecor's comes second

On the site I posted, Rivard is responding to the Wong article and Wong is responding to Rivard's response. It is impossible to say otherwise.

Elsewhere, Wong goes on at greater length in his rebuttal of Rivard's comments on his article.

[Pooka1]

No Sharon - I wrote: orthopedic specialist ... you know - the one I include in my treatment plan - the MD/surgeon who includes my chiropractor in my treatment. Boy - how many times to I have to say that?

I thought you referred to the chiro as your "orthopedic specialist." I assumed if you were referring to your orthopedic surgeon you would have said surgeon.

To be clear why don't you just say "surgeon" or "chiro?"