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  • #31
    Originally posted by MissEmmyF View Post
    Oh, and the other thing I always wondered about is swimming...I would have guessed that would be the most "symmetrical" sport of them all, no? I can understand javelyn (sp?) throwing, but swimming and even ballet shocks me...
    There is something wrong with that study. Has it ever been repeated?

    It requires far more proof than has been shown to date.

    Ballet, as well as gymnastics, does not pull equal numbers from all body type categories. There might be some skewing towards people who have some connective tissue disorder, I don't know.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-24-2009, 06:50 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    • #32
      child atheletes and scoliosis

      It is well known that child atheletes have high rates of Scoliosis. Many different studies have documented the connection.

      Google offers a free web based service that people can use to find information on this and many other subjects.

      Baltimore Washington Medical Center page on Scoliosis

      Young Athletes
      Scoliosis may be evident in young athletes, with a prevalence of 2 - 24%. The highest rates are observed among dancers, gymnasts, and swimmers. The scoliosis may have been due in part to loosening of the joints, delay in puberty onset (which can lead to weakened bones), and stresses on the growing spine. There have also been other isolated reports of a higher risk for scoliosis in young athletes who engage vigorously in sports that put an uneven load on the spine. These include figure skating, dance, tennis, skiing, and javelin throwing, among other sports. In most cases, the scoliosis is minor, and everyday sports do not lead to scoliosis. Exercise has many benefits for people both young and old and may even help patients with scoliosis.
      Last edited by Dingo; 06-24-2009, 07:00 PM.

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      • #33
        I don't think they have controlled for body types who do well and therefore stay in the sport. It's nuanced points like this and a million more that result in most published reports being false. The situation is more complex than anyone probably presently imagines. It's hard to design a study that truly answers complex questions.

        Also, as Betty pointed out, the scoliosis that is largely being discussed is NOT AIS in those child athletes. Apples and oranges.

        And last, I think ballet, gymnastics, and swimming, like riding, all work towards evening out the sidedness everyone has. If there are small, non-AIS scoliosises then they just haven't evened themselves out. Nor has most of the rest of the population.
        Last edited by Pooka1; 06-24-2009, 07:27 PM.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
          And last, I think ballet, gymnastics, and swimming, like riding, all work towards evening out the sidedness everyone has. If there are small, non-AIS scoliosises then they just haven't evened themselves out. Nor has most of the rest of the population.

          I think the above sports vary a lot in their "even-ness", if that's a word, on the spine.
          Swimming, is relatively even if the breathing direction is always varied.
          Riding seems pretty even.
          Gymnastics and ballet, however, are quite uneven activities, as the dancer or gymnast usually has a preferred side for jumping, landing and twisting. Add that to being female, premenarchal, and training heavily, and having some causative factors for AIS, it's not suprising that rates of AIS or functional scoliosis are higher.
          Bettina:
          - 34 year old physiotherapist
          - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
          - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by betty14 View Post
            Gymnastics and ballet, however, are quite uneven activities, as the dancer or gymnast usually has a preferred side for jumping, landing and twisting. Add that to being female, premenarchal, and training heavily, and having some causative factors for AIS, it's not surprising that rates of AIS or functional scoliosis are higher.
            Do you actually mean to imply these activities can CAUSE AIS even just in a contributory fashion? Wouldn't that run counter to PT as a treatment for scoliosis?

            While we might have some correlation (not necessarily though), that certainly doesn't imply causation. This is more complex than we can even imagine at present in my opinion.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              Do you actually mean to imply these activities can CAUSE AIS even just in a contributory fashion? Wouldn't that run counter to PT as a treatment for scoliosis?

              While we might have some correlation (not necessarily though), that certainly doesn't imply causation. This is more complex than we can even imagine at present in my opinion.

              What I mean is this:

              Scoliosis likely has several as-yet-unknown or at least un-firmly prooved causes (I'll call this the X factors)

              It is suspected that several things may contribute to scoliosis, such as heavy training in young girls or boys where the spine gets asymmetrically loaded...

              Let's say child A has the "X factor". Maybe she'd be destined to get mild AIS.

              But is Child A also is a ballet dancer, with several suspected contributing factors like poor nutrition, overtraining, delayed menarche, maybe then she'd get moderate AIS.

              Lets say child B has two "X factors". Maybe severe scoliosis needing surgery.

              Lets say child C has no "X factors", and has all the same contributing factors as child A. Maybe this person gets a functional scoliosis only. Or maybe nothing at all.

              You're right, it's very complex. There must be reasons why degrees of curves vary so much. I think of the contributing factors as synergists (I hope I have the right word there, maybe I mean enzymes?). In any case, the contributing factors only matter much in the presence of factor X. Otherwise we'd all have scoliosis!


              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              Wouldn't that run counter to PT as a treatment for scoliosis?
              Nope!

              B.
              Bettina:
              - 34 year old physiotherapist
              - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
              - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

              Comment


              • #37
                Just the simple fact that it's estimated that 1 in 5 dancers has scoliosis tells me that something is going on. I wonder why there haven't been studies focused just on ballet, say. (or maybe there have been and I just haven't come across them). I think it's irresponsible of the dance world not to alert families that children taking dance are at greater risk; regardless of whether it's causal. If I'd known I'd have been on top of the pediatrician to do more frequent and more thorough screening. As it was the pediatrician did a screening at age 13 and then checks every year but missed the diagnosis completely. It was a dance teacher who noticed the asymmetry in the muscles--not the curve, when my daughter was 16.

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                • #38
                  Scoliosis can be hard to spot if you don't know what you are looking for. Of course I feel like I can detect scoliosis in people because I know exactly what to look for...I have my own rib hump, uneven hips, torso rotation, one shoulder higher up and more forward, etc!

                  In some sports the body and body form are very important - such as gymnastics and ballet, for instance. Not so in other sports - think basketball, softball, etc. In gym. and ballet., as well as swimming, you body shape is important and you also tend to spend a lot of time in very form fitting clothing.

                  Don't you think, in well balanced curves, it would be much easier to spot them in a swimmer/gymnast/dancer? Could it be there are higher detection rates in these girls for the reasons stated above? I would think that studies would try to control for this somehow, but I have not read the literature to see how they account for this.

                  --Steph
                  --Steph

                  Anterior surgery 9/23/09
                  Fused T10 - L3

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I take your point about form fitting clothes but my daughter wore such clothing for years with no one picking up on it. Just 3 months before detection she had a session with an alignment specialist who didn't notice it, so I'm not sure the dance world is attuned to look for the condition. If it's simply that the detection rates are higher in dance wouldn't that lead to the possibility that the occurrence of scoliosis in the general population approaches 1 in 5 with a lot of undiagnosed people walking around? I haven't read anything like that although I have read that many people with smaller curves--under 25, say--never notice the condition, or don't notice it until late in life.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by sed78 View Post
                      Scoliosis can be hard to spot if you don't know what you are looking for. Of course I feel like I can detect scoliosis in people because I know exactly what to look for...I have my own rib hump, uneven hips, torso rotation, one shoulder higher up and more forward, etc!

                      In some sports the body and body form are very important - such as gymnastics and ballet, for instance. Not so in other sports - think basketball, softball, etc. In gym. and ballet., as well as swimming, you body shape is important and you also tend to spend a lot of time in very form fitting clothing.

                      Don't you think, in well balanced curves, it would be much easier to spot them in a swimmer/gymnast/dancer? Could it be there are higher detection rates in these girls for the reasons stated above? I would think that studies would try to control for this somehow, but I have not read the literature to see how they account for this.

                      --Steph
                      Interesting point. It's certainly possible that there's a lot of undetected scoliosis.
                      Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                      Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        scoliosis and athletics

                        1992 - Study - The thoracolumbar spine in young elite athletes.

                        Due to the increased interest in physical fitness and to the fact that athletes start their training at younger ages the risk for injuries to the growing individual has increased. The spine, as with the rest of the skeleton, is at greater risk of injury during growth, especially during the adolescent growth spurt. Back pain is more common among athletes participating in sports with high demands on the back than other athletes and nonathletes. Disc degeneration, defined as disc height reduction on conventional radiographs and reduced disc signal intensity on MRI, has been found in a higher frequency among wrestlers and gymnasts than nonathletes. Abnormalities of the vertebral bodies including abnormal configuration, Schmorl's nodes and apophyseal changes are common among athletes. These abnormalities are similar to those found in Scheuermann's disease. Athletes with these types of abnormalities have more back pain than those without. Spondylolysis has been found in higher frequencies than expected among athletes representing many different sports. Spondylolysis has been reported in up to 50% of athletes with back pain. Scoliosis has been found in up to 80% of athletes with an asymmetric load on the trunk and shoulders, such as javelin throwers and tennis players. The scoliosis, however, is a small curvature and does not cause back pain.
                        I can boil that study down to one sentence.

                        Intense, physical training can damage the growing spine.
                        Last edited by Dingo; 06-25-2009, 02:42 PM.

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                        • #42
                          scoliosis and athletics

                          June 2000 - Study - Scoliosis in rhythmic gymnasts.

                          Results:
                          A 10-fold higher incidence of scoliosis was found in rhythmic gymnastic trainees (12%) than in their normal coevals (1.1%).
                          Conclusions:
                          This study identified a separate scoliotic entity associated with rhythmic gymnastics. The results strongly suggest the important etiologic role of a "dangerous triad": generalized joint laxity, delayed maturity, and asymmetric spinal loading.
                          I should note that exercise, sports and gymnastics probably aren't harmful unless they are taken to an extreme. A girl isn't going to get scoliosis from gymnastics class or from playing volleyball. However if a young girl practices every day for 2 hours to get onto the US Olympic team she's probably in the danger zone.
                          Last edited by Dingo; 06-25-2009, 11:39 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by aterry View Post
                            I take your point about form fitting clothes but my daughter wore such clothing for years with no one picking up on it. Just 3 months before detection she had a session with an alignment specialist who didn't notice it, so I'm not sure the dance world is attuned to look for the condition. If it's simply that the detection rates are higher in dance wouldn't that lead to the possibility that the occurrence of scoliosis in the general population approaches 1 in 5 with a lot of undiagnosed people walking around? I haven't read anything like that although I have read that many people with smaller curves--under 25, say--never notice the condition, or don't notice it until late in life.
                            This is a good point and again highlights how studies that rely on self-reporting like that Danish twin study are garbage in - garbage out.

                            We know separately that there is a two-three fold under-reporting of scoliosis in that twin study because only about 1% of the twins self-reported as having scoliosis. That study was large enough that we would expect the global percentage (2-3%) to apply. Yet it did not.

                            In other words, we can be confident that the Danish twins study missed more scoliosis cases than it detected by a factor of two to three. And yet it was published. I blame the peer reviewers.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dingo View Post
                              June 2000 - Study - Scoliosis in rhythmic gymnasts.

                              Conclusions:

                              This study identified a separate scoliotic entity associated with rhythmic gymnastics. The results strongly suggest the important etiologic role of a "dangerous triad": generalized joint laxity, delayed maturity, and asymmetric spinal loading.
                              "Generalized joint laxity." That is NOT normal.

                              This is my point that there is a strong selection in certain endeavors for certain body types and attributes. They winnow themselves. The kids who stay generally have those attributes. Certain of those attributes have a KNOWN correlation with certain connective disorder disorders.

                              In other words, it should not be surprising that "generalized joint laxity" is OVER-represented in ballet and gymnastics (or whatever). These people are self selecting and skewing the percentages away from that in the general population.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I see your point

                                Pooka1

                                In other words, it should not be surprising that "generalized joint laxity" is OVER-represented in ballet and gymnastics (or whatever). These people are self selecting and skewing the percentages away from that in the general population.
                                You think that scoliosis is 10 fold higher in competitive, Bulgarian rhythmic gymnasts because "pre-scoliotic" children are attracted to this intense sport?

                                Very interesting hypothesis.

                                Maybe cigarettes don't raise the risk of lung cancer. People who are biologically prone to lung cancer like the taste of cigarettes.

                                Makes perfect sense to me.

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