Muscles move the joints, don't they???

[Pooka1]

The brace is acting like a second set of muscles. In areas along my spine that were previously atrophied - these are strengthening and the strength holds out of brace (have been wearing near 3 months at this point). There is no atrophy being experienced - in fact the opposite.

The only thing that can build muscles naturally (i.e., excluding anabolic steroids and such) is use. Exercise.

Bracing is the opposite of exercise in that it either proves the support that your body can't and/or it restricts exercise of the muscles.

Braces can't build muscle. They decrease it through restriction and taking over for muscle.

I cite my biochemistry course and knowing what a brace is and does.

[mamamax]

Well, i don't care what your educational background is in - here's the thing: First off - physical therapy can build muscle. This brace is designed in such a manner as physical therapy is not required along with treatment - because, the brace is engineered to create the same effect as physical therapy just in the wearing, along with normal activity. This information is outlined within the manufacturer's web page.

So - that is why myself and others experience the things we do and this is why Spinecor is unlike any rigid bracing.

Your original statement:

Any brace that takes over for muscle (that is ALL BRACES) cannot even in principle build muscle. You can only lose muscle in a brace. All braces. Not just from being restricted in movement but also because the brace is supporting you rather than your own muscles. If Spinecor is ever shown to be effective, it works in the identical manner as hard braces.

Again, i'd like to ask you if you have any evidence/proof of what you say regarding Spinecore. Or, is this just a personal opinion?

[Pooka1]

Well, i don't care what your educational background is in - here's the thing: First off - physical therapy can build muscle.

Precisely what I said.

This brace is designed in such a manner as physical therapy is not required along with treatment - because, the brace is engineered to create the same effect as physical therapy just in the wearing, along with normal activity.

Do you understand how a brace can mimic physical therapy? Feel free to read the Spinecor material before answering.

If so, explain it to me please.

[mamamax]

How about you answer my question first??

[Pooka1]

How about you answer my question first??

The person making the claim has the burden of proof.

The person doubting the claim gets to sit back and watch the show.

This should not be news. It's debating 101.

Spinecor, through you, are making a claim that the brace works like physical therapy.

I am asking you to take up that burden and prove it.

Do you know the claimed mechanism for how Spinecor mimics PT or not? If you don't understand the mechanism then how can you know if the claim is true or false?

[mamamax]

I know what this brace is doing for me. So do others. I care little about debate rules. If you will answer my question - I'll be glad to answer yours :-)

[Pooka1]

I know what this brace is doing for me. So do others. I care little about debate rules. If you will answer my question - I'll be glad to answer yours :-)

I answered it up-thread.

It is well-known how braces work. You might want to read up on it.

What is unknown is how a particular brace can work like PT.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence as the late, great Carl Sagan used to say.

[mamamax]

From the brace manual (written by the surgeons/inventors Rivard/Colliard) and incidentally posted at SRS.

Physical therapy is NOT a necessity in the SpineCor program (SpineCor itself may be considered a physiotherapy 20 hours out of 24). However, when the patient is willing to undergo a physio program, or a faster consolidation of the reduction of the curve is desired, the Global Postural Reeducation (GPR) program is considered.

From the manufacturer's web page:

The SpineCor® treatment approach is completely different to that of traditional braces that use 3-point pressure and distraction; it is the first and only true dynamic bracing system for idiopathic scoliosis. SpineCor®’s unique approach to treatment by global postural re-education has been shown to give progressive correction over time which, unlike any previous brace treatment, is extremely stable post brace weaning.

Good night Sharon - other things to do than turn this this tread into a great "debate" about Spinecor. If you truly believe these things to be untrue - please do us all a big favor and write Rivard and Colliard with your concerns and post their answer for us?

Later -

[betty14]

I know that. My point was that there are some very promising studies in regard to alternative methods. Are we talking in circles? Do you keep repeating yourself or does it just seem that way?

I actually enjoyed science in high school and college, but thanks for the career advice.

I think most people on this forum believe the same basic stuff, so I'm not quite sure why there's so much debate. I'm not trying to stop anyone from having fusion, especially if they have very large curves. I honestly don't think exercise would help substantial curves. It sucks if surgery is the only answer, but sometimes it is. Thank goodness the technologies for doing so are only getting better.

And, I think most people can agree that if any progress is made with exercising, the exercises will likely have to be continued. So, what's the problem? I'm not telling young children with large curves to start exercising, your problem will be solved, and not to have fusion. I just think it's good to be as proactive as possible. Watching and waiting is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I equate it to: "well, your cholesterol is a little high right now, but we're not going to put you on any medicine until it gets worse." Instead of: "hey, you should watch what you eat and start exercising." It's the same thing to me.

In my case, Schroth is exactly what I was looking for because I only have a moderate curve, and it improves my pain and physical appearance. I'm happy to commit a half hour to hour each day to my exercises. Hopefully it will continue to help me over time and stop any progression in the future. It's certainly better than doing nothing.

Thank you for being a voice of reason, MissEmmyF!
As with most things in life, extremism is usually not the answer.

B.

[betty14]

I wonder if building muscle can ever possibly work to hold the spine in place until maturity if physically holding the spine in place as with a brace hasn't been shown to do so. I mean the claim at that point would have to be that muscle strength is somehow superior than a brace in terms of holding the spine in a particular configuration. It sounds unlikely but what do I know?

Hello, I can supply an answer here. Anotomy and physiology tell us that the muscles and ligaments have numerous types of receptors that are responsible for sensing things such as level of stretch, level or compression, amount of chemical irritants etc.

As an example, when the ankle is sprained and the muscles on the side of the ankle are streched, several things happen. Disrupted receptors sites no longer send the messages effectively to the brain, and the resulting automatic posture responses are lost. At the same time, muscles around an injured joint, even if not injured themselves, become inhibited. So, the person's balance is way off. Specific balance and strength training allows the skills to be re-learned. This is old hat in rehab. literature.

Applying this to scoliosis:
We know that the scoliotic spine's posture, balance, positional sense is way off (who knows WHY). The person's brain has no idea of what "normal" is.
When one applies a brace, this passively holds the person straighter. This may have some benefit to prioprioception, but the muscles are not required to do too much - and the body is designed to move. If one could take a person that has lost their ability to "feel" what a proper joint position or level of muscle tension is, and reteach these skills, motor learning can take place - the brain learns.

As for why some braced people's curves hold, and others' do not likely is due to many factors....as I know many of you have read up on.

One line quoted above I'll repeat:

...the claim at that point would have to be that muscle strength is somehow superior than a brace in terms of holding the spine in a particular configuration....


OF COURSE muscle strengh is superior if you can achieve it! There are muscles large and small, going in all different directions, that precicely hold joints in place and move them is proper sequence when we walk, jump etc...

Clinically, (for my non-scoliosis patients), I often use bracing and exercise together. Bracing helps when the patient is weak and needs the support, and is weaned off of as able.

Cheers,
B.

[mamamax]

Clinically, (for my non-scoliosis patients), I often use bracing and exercise together. Bracing helps when the patient is weak and needs the support, and is weaned off of as able.

Cheers,
B.

Betty ~ i want to be a patient of yours!! Everything you have said makes perfect sense. At 59 this patient was quite weak and had lost several inches of height. My brace, a godsend in terms of postural rehabilitation and lessening of pain. This morning - standing 4 inches taller (out of brace) than when i began my treatment. The physical difference, quite dramatic. Muscles are being retrained and strengthened - it can be done :-) and i'm looking forward to adding Schroth (developed by a PT) to the program!

[Pooka1]

(snip background material of uncertain relevance)
One line quoted above I'll repeat:

...the claim at that point would have to be that muscle strength is somehow superior than a brace in terms of holding the spine in a particular configuration....

OF COURSE muscle strength is superior if you can achieve it!

I don't know why this is so obvious to you. I would say OF COURSE a brace has to be superior to any amount of muscle training.

ETA: What we are talking about here is trying to stop the wedging of bone as far as I can tell. If braces haven't been able to hold the spine such that the growth plates on one side are not able to grow then I don't see how any amount of strength training with the same goal of holding the spine to arrest one side of the growth plate can work.

Clinically, (for my non-scoliosis patients), I often use bracing and exercise together. Bracing helps when the patient is weak and needs the support, and is weaned off of as able.

So you are saying braces provide support that the muscles can't provide. Now if you continue to support the muscle through bracing, will the muscle get better or worse?

Now if you have a brace that RESTRICTS movement of certain muscles, will those muscles get better or worse?

I mean why wean people off braces when they build muscle as Spinecor claims? Why don't folks wear braces instead of exercise to build muscle if that claim is correct?

Can you please explain how braces work in terms of what happens to muscle so we can move on.

[Dingo]

bracing more effective than PT

Pooka1

I would say OF COURSE a brace has to be superior to any amount of muscle training.

Do you have any science to back that up? All 3 torso rotation studies produced more positive results than any bracing study I am aware of.

Post a credible bracing study that produced anything close to this.

The Role of Measured Resistance Exercises in Adolescent Scoliosis

I think you are making up science again.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1



Do you have any science to back that up? All 3 torso rotation studies produced more positive results than any bracing study I am aware of.

Post a credible bracing study that produced anything close to this.

The Role of Measured Resistance Exercises in Adolescent Scoliosis

I think you are making up science again.

No the problem is there is little science in this area. Obviously my statement is not based on science nor is the statement I was responding to.

I guess I'll try to be clearer I guess.

There are any number of people who make up science but I'm not one of them.

[mamamax]

You know - there is no one size fits all. Dingo - the information you post looks very very promising in certain cases ... what are those cases? The reason i ask is this: i have been told by my specialists (both past and present) to never do torso rotational exercises .. i don't know why, maybe something to do with double curves and the degree of magnitude. I don't know, but will ask.

Bracing alone with Spinecor has some pretty impressive statistics w/5 year follow ups (SOSORT 2009). I do not know if these kids were also using PT specific for scoliosis or not. I suspect they were. I do know that for me, exercise is recommended because (i presume) the brace can provide a lot - but exercise will provide the stability.