Muscles move the joints, don't they???

[Pooka1]

In the meantime Dr. Mooney said that he's followed several children from his first study and it remained effective.

Why haven't the data been published?

[Dingo]

unpublished

Pooka1

Why haven't the data been published?

You realize that it wouldn't be particularly useful to publish on perhaps 3 kids out of 20 right? 3 kids out of 20 might have held anyway.

There might be 100 rational reasons for Mooney's decision including that fact that he is retired. You are constantly looking for any reason to be dismissive, argumentative and needlessly discouraging.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1



You realize that it wouldn't be particularly useful to publish on perhaps 3 kids out of 20 right? 3 kids out of 20 might have held anyway.

There might be 100 rational reasons for Mooney's decision including that fact that he is retired. You are constantly looking for any reason to be dismissive, argumentative and needlessly discouraging.

You completely misunderstand.

I am appropriately skeptical as a scientist and rational person should be.

If everyone was appropriately skeptical, we as a society wouldn't have to deal with:

superstition
homeopathy
astrology
the flat earth society
young earth creationism
some of chiro
circuses with animal acts
religion
ESP claims
UFO claims
etc.
etc.
etc.

[mamamax]

Wow, can things can certainly get tense on this forum! I noted that in my readings prior to ever making my first post...but risked it anyway.

I think that a big part of the reason for the tension is that people are angry.

I was angry off and on for years that my body had essentially betrayed me....I would not wear a shirt without a collar for years because of my neck contour. I would not wear a bikini because of the skin folds on my trunk.

I was told that all I could do was "watch and wait", and have an x-ray every year. I felt very powerless. Luckily, during all that watching and waiting, my curves did not progress much, but I got more sore every year.

Luckily, in my health field, I had easier access to information (and was able to understand that information), and I was able to apply my own logic to treat myself. More recently, I've had the best success I've had yet by following the Schroth principles. Now I hate shirts with collars and wear a two piece suit because if I maintain my corrective exercises there are hardly any skin creases!

I am a lot less angry about having this rotten condition; in fact I feel empowered that I can do things to help myself. For me, that is the very best part of an exercise based approach to treat my symptoms, and I totally intend to PREVENT progression when I hit menopause and the onset of degenerative scoliosis...but that's another topic altogether.

Thanks to those of you who have welcomed me to your site. I hope to have some interesting and respectful conversations with you!

B.

Betty ~ First off, a big thank you to you! Please continue to share your experience and professional knowledge for there are countless like myself who thirst for it and who may benefit from your sharing.

I have some questions ...

Schroth is to be incorporated into my treatment plan. I have the bible you mentioned earlier but lack the skills to best understand it. While right angle breathing (RAB) has been explained to me more than once, i'm still not getting it. Can you help me better understand that? My upper curve is to the left so i guess the standard directions are reversed in my case?

Also, can you share some statistical information such as curvature improvement in terms of degrees, any height changes, etc, that you have experienced.

[MissEmmyF]

You completely misunderstand.

I am appropriately skeptical as a scientist and rational person should be.

If everyone was appropriately skeptical, we as a society wouldn't have to deal with:

superstition
homeopathy
astrology
the flat earth society
young earth creationism
some of chiro
circuses with animal acts
religion
ESP claims
UFO claims
etc.
etc.
etc.

Ok, but you don't seem to be skeptical of many surgical techniques. Are you only "appropriately" skeptical of non-surgical methods?

[Pooka1]

Ok, but you don't seem to be skeptical of many surgical techniques. Are you only "appropriately" skeptical of non-surgical methods?

As all scientists and rational people do, I scale my skepticism to the evidence.

Something like posterior spinal fusion, the "gold standard" of fusion surgery, enjoys a relative large amount of evidence. The modern instrumentation improves on an already good track record for previous generation instrumentation.

Something like PT or bracing to decrease curves or prevent progression enjoys far less evidence to date. Nobody has proven it can't work but we can take into account the number of decades folks have been trying to help scale our skepticism.

Now contrast this with H. pylori causing most stomach ulcers. Before the evidence was in, many were skeptical but we didn't have anything close to evidence ruling it out. We didn't have decades of studies that failed to show ulcers are largely caused by bacteria. We had only a relative few people looking at the problem of whether or not bacteria cause most stomach ulcers.

None of that is the case with PT and bracing.

Skepticism scaled to the evidence. More than just a good idea...

[MissEmmyF]

Ok, so do you think it's beneficial to put into place a specific exercise program when scoliosis is first spotted? Or, do you think "watching and waiting" is just as good?

[Pooka1]

Ok, so do you think it's beneficial to put into place a specific exercise program when scoliosis is first spotted? Or, do you think "watching and waiting" is just as good?

Depends on the size of the curve when first spotted.

For small curves, the evidence to date lines up on the side of watching and waiting, especially since we have evidence that many small curves not only reduce on their own but completely correct spontaneously.

It necessarily follows that anyone doing anything with a small curve outside of a controlled study can never know for sure the treatment did a thing given the relative high rate of spontaneous correction.

Yes? No?

[MissEmmyF]

All large curves start as small curves

[Pooka1]

All large curves start as small curves

That is a penetrating glimpse into the obvious. How does it address anything I wrote?

[MissEmmyF]

Because a lot of small curves don't miraculously straighten on their own...they get larger...thus, the reason for starting a specific exercise program ASAP.

[Pooka1]

Because a lot of small curves don't miraculously straighten on their own...they get larger...thus, the reason for starting a specific exercise program ASAP.

Doesn't "starting a specific exercise program ASAP" simply ASSUME there is evidence doing so will prevent any curves from progressing?

What is the evidence you are assuming?

ETA: Please email the evidence to Samdani since he seems to feel there is no evidence base don his comments on that video Dingo posted.

[MissEmmyF]

i'm not "assuming" any evidence. i just think there are a bunch of promising studies out there. but mainly, i don't see how doing nothing (i.e. watching and waiting) is just as good as being proactive. that makes no logical sense to me. personally, i don't need 100 years of long terms studies just to start doing a practical exercise program.

and, i'm not about to post any studies or anything like that. dingo has posted many links in this thread and in others. anything posted just gets totally picked apart by you, questioned to death, and it's really tiresome and bothersome.

[Pooka1]

i'm not "assuming" any evidence. i just think there are a bunch of promising studies out there. but mainly, i don't see how doing nothing (i.e. watching and waiting) is just as good as being proactive. that makes no logical sense to me. personally, i don't need 100 years of long terms studies just to start doing a practical exercise program.

Effective alternative treatments don't automatically and necessarily exist just because you can't conceive of their not existing.

and, i'm not about to post any studies or anything like that. dingo has posted many links in this thread and in others. anything posted just gets totally picked apart by you, questioned to death, and it's really tiresome and bothersome.

Don't ever go into science. You'll hate it.

[MissEmmyF]

Effective alternative treatments don't automatically and necessarily exist just because you can't conceive of their not existing.



Don't ever go into science. You'll hate it.

I know that. My point was that there are some very promising studies in regard to alternative methods. Are we talking in circles? Do you keep repeating yourself or does it just seem that way?

I actually enjoyed science in high school and college, but thanks for the career advice.

I think most people on this forum believe the same basic stuff, so I'm not quite sure why there's so much debate. I'm not trying to stop anyone from having fusion, especially if they have very large curves. I honestly don't think exercise would help substantial curves. It sucks if surgery is the only answer, but sometimes it is. Thank goodness the technologies for doing so are only getting better.

And, I think most people can agree that if any progress is made with exercising, the exercises will likely have to be continued. So, what's the problem? I'm not telling young children with large curves to start exercising, your problem will be solved, and not to have fusion. I just think it's good to be as proactive as possible. Watching and waiting is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I equate it to: "well, your cholesterol is a little high right now, but we're not going to put you on any medicine until it gets worse." Instead of: "hey, you should watch what you eat and start exercising." It's the same thing to me.

In my case, Schroth is exactly what I was looking for because I only have a moderate curve, and it improves my pain and physical appearance. I'm happy to commit a half hour to hour each day to my exercises. Hopefully it will continue to help me over time and stop any progression in the future. It's certainly better than doing nothing.