Page 5 of 49 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 728

Thread: Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903

    4 month stability

    Taking one more swing at this...

    My one daughter has has two documented 6-month periods where her curve did not increase measurably. Based just on how her back looked in the last three months which comes on the heels of a previously documented 6 month period of stability...

    had she been enrolled in that study, she would have been counted as a SUCCESS for exercising for sure at four months and very likely for 8 months. All in the PLUS column for exercise stabilizing curves.

    Please raise your hand if you doubt that for a single second.

    Yet back in reality, she didn't do a lick of targeted exercise and not much exercise to speak of at all. And STILL her curve definitely didn't increase measurably in the 6 months and very likely still hasn't progressed measurably by 8 months.

    Thus the researchers would have been fooled into thinking the exercise caused the stability. This study should be a poster child for the need for control groups or at least documented high curvature rates.

    Unless and until they can demonstrate the patients in the study were in a growth spurt or otherwise had a documented high rate of curvature right before entering the study, they simply can't make the conclusions they did.

    FULL STOP.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Dr. Douglas Kiester told me essentially the same thing. First the spine rotates and then growth pushes out the lateral curve.
    And yet my one kid has a curve measured as high as 40* with virtually no rotation.

    How is that possible under Kiester's hypothesis?

    I look at my kid's back. It doesn't look like it is progressing either in angle or rotation. It seems locked at ~40*. I am going to ask the surgeon what the maximum bend a unrotated spine can achieve. It just may be ~40*.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Well that sounds rational.

    But I'm wondering if anyone associated with Schoth told you she could stop exercising and would maintain the correction?

    Also, did anyone say had your daughter started exercising while there was growth remainig that she could have permamently reduced her curve absent continued exercise?

    Well that is interesting. I wonder if he thinks she might never progress at this point past the 48* because you got it down to 32*/34* but I'm just guessing.

    I agree Schroth reduced her curve about that much but would really like to know if the people at Schroth are telling you it is permanent.

    Thanks for typing that testimonial.
    Hey Sharon
    When we were told that it is impossible to improve the curve of an adult spine, I believe our orthos were referring to bracing. None of them believed that exercises could improve scoliosis curves. I have read of some curves improving with bracing (when still growing, not an adult spine) so I assume it's possible that curves could improve while doing targeted exercises too, and that it could be a more "permanent" correction since the spine would be growing in that corrected way. I don't have facts to back that up, though. Just my thoughts.

    Nobody told us that if my daughter stops her exercises, that she will hold her 14-16* correction. Our Schroth physiotherapist never even made promises that my daughter's curve would improve at all from doing the exercises. We only started this approach last year because we were hoping to "hold" our daughter's curve from getting worse, so the 14-16* improvement was a "bonus"!

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    Well I find the whole situation with your daughter eye opening. I can't recall anything close to that type of reduction from exercise alone except Hawes.

    So that's two.

    I'm going to mention this to our surgeon to see if he is aware that exercise can reduce a curve at least temporarily 14*-16*. He may not be aware of that.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    6,797
    Sharon...

    Elise Browning Miller (Yoga for Scoliosis) has reduced her curves significantly with daily yoga exercise. I've seen the before and after myself. I can't remember the degrees, but we're not talking a small curve. Elise feels the improvement is permanent. Obviously, I don't agree. I don't know how many hours each day she exercises, but it's a lot.

    Regards,
    Linda

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,258
    SEAS exercises revert progression of adult scoliosis:
    a retrospective long-term study (SOSORT 2009)
    http://scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/S1/O55

    Background: Formal papers regarding the efficacy of exercise in adult scoliosis are few.

    Aim: To verify, if the natural history of adult scoliosis can be modified by exercises.

    Study design: Retrospective pre-post study.

    Results

    Exercises caused a statistically significant decrease of 3.6 5 of scoliosis (-3.2 4.3 per year): 1 patient progressed, 45% improved; in sub-group A results were identical, after a previous worsening of 9.7 6.8 (+2.1 4.3 per year); in sub-group B stopping exercises caused a progression of 8.3 3.8 (+1.4 0.5 per year). The best results were observed in patients exercising since, even if some patients continued to decrease their curve during the year
    Conclusion

    SEAS exercises revert the progression of adult scoliosis, and a prospective study is already under way. The different results according to length of treatment could be due to a plateau of correction or to an increase of quality of the protocol applied (SEAS changes continuously according to new knowledge in the literature). These results question the immediate need for surgery when facing progression of deformity in adulthood.

    I wrote the first author on the paper "Adult scoliosis can be reduced through specific SEAS exercises: a case report", received a nice reply and the following web link for information and full reports: http://www.isico.it/approach/default.htm

    The Textbook:
    THE EVIDENCE BASED ISICO APPROACH TO SPINAL DEFORMITIES
    http://www.isico.it/approach/summary.htm

    Email address for further questions is also within this web page.





  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Sharon...

    Elise Browning Miller (Yoga for Scoliosis) has reduced her curves significantly with daily yoga exercise. I've seen the before and after myself. I can't remember the degrees, but we're not talking a small curve. Elise feels the improvement is permanent. Obviously, I don't agree. I don't know how many hours each day she exercises, but it's a lot.

    Regards,
    Linda
    Okay that's three.

    Just curious... does she have some rational reason why she thinks the improvement is permanent or is it wishful thinking?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    948

    Great find

    Great find mamamax!

    I'm surpised that physical therapy works in adults but who am I to question something that appears to work.

    I'm beginning to suspect that just about any type of strength training is helpful for kids with Scoliosis. Of course like diet and exercise for weightloss the key is doing it.

    This gem is from the recent McIntire study:
    It is well recognized that the incidence of scoliosis progressing to 20 degrees or more is much higher among girls than boys. Girls may be more vulnerable to scoliosis progression because of the difference in trunk musculature. AIS girls are less mesomorphic than controls. Trunk flexion and extension strength in young girls, but not boys, decreases from the juvenile to the adolescent years.
    I think it's amazing that trunk strength in girls actually goes down as they get older. WOW! That might explain why scoliosis in adolescents is something like 9 girls to 1 boy. In juveniles the ratio is about 1 to 1.
    Last edited by Dingo; 07-13-2009 at 04:55 PM.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    6,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Okay that's three.

    Just curious... does she have some rational reason why she thinks the improvement is permanent or is it wishful thinking?
    When I challenged that I thought her curve would reappear if she ever stopped exercising, she did not respond.

    --Linda

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,090
    Dingo,

    It looks like Dr. Mooney is continuing with his research at his own facilities.

    Good luck to your son! Thanks for pointing out Dr. Mooney's research to me.


    Non-Surgical Scoliosis Study

    Introduction
    This study provides specific strength-training exercise for adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis. It has been demonstrated that all patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis are weaker rotating their torso to one side versus the other. To correct that, measured strength training on specific equipment is used as a treatment of the curvature. Preliminary experience indicates that this treatment may stop curve progression and may improve the curve.

    Objective
    The objective of this study is to test the effectiveness of using this specific strength-training program in stopping the progression of the curve in larger numbers of scoliosis individuals.

    Overview of study design
    Patients will participate in this strength-training program on specific equipment in the study centers two times per week.

    Patients will be required to provide a copy of their current spine x-ray prior to beginning the study, and to provide copies of x-rays completed throughout the duration of the treatment.

    The treatment is free for those who provide copies of their baseline and follow-up x-rays for the first three months.

    Study Sponsor
    US Spine and Sport Foundation (www.spineandsport.com)

    Status
    Recruiting

    Eligibility

    All scoliotic adolescents who are still growing, age 10 and up, male or female

    X-Rays documenting a spinal curvature of more than 10 degrees and less than 45 degrees


    Available to participate in strength training twice a week for 5 -15 minute sessions on special exercise equipment


    All participants must bring copies of baseline X-rays and then have follow-up X-rays about 3 months later, and bring copies of these to the therapist.
    Listing of Clinical Sites Involved in this Research
    http://www.spineandsport.com/foundat...iosisstudy.htm

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Sharon...

    Elise Browning Miller (Yoga for Scoliosis) has reduced her curves significantly with daily yoga exercise. I've seen the before and after myself. I can't remember the degrees, but we're not talking a small curve. Elise feels the improvement is permanent. Obviously, I don't agree. I don't know how many hours each day she exercises, but it's a lot.

    Regards,
    Linda
    [/QUOTE]
    Originally Posted by Pooka1

    Okay that's three.

    Just curious... does she have some rational reason why she thinks the improvement is permanent or is it wishful thinking?

    [/QUOTE]


    Regarding the above exchange:

    Linda, since you do not know how many per day she exercises, how do you know it is "a lot"? A person who enjoys working out may find an hour per day little, whereas a sedentary person may find 10 minutes per day too hard to manage. Is there any way for you to find out?

    It is likely that if the lady continues her routine, her improvement will be longstanding, and she will be much better able to fight against the post-menopause worsening of her scoliosis.

    This person clearly has put a lot of work into making positive changes in her body, and I find Pooka's comment about "wishful thinking" quite insulting.
    Nothing in life is permanent, including life. But if this lady maintains her structure and function into her elderly years, with significantly less deterioration than others who did not take her course of action, isn't that to be applauded? And so what if she has to continue to exercise for the rest of her life? A sedentary lifestyle, what I call physical lazyness (when there is no physical reason that makes a person unable to be active), is a problem in our modern society.

    B.
    Bettina:
    - 34 year old physiotherapist
    - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
    - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,161

    post-menopause worsening of scoliosis

    Hi Betty,

    I find your posts fascinating and informative. Would you mind elaborating on your comment about post-menopause worsening of scoliosis? Is this common? If so, what is the reason.

    Thanks!
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    As far as I can tell, Mooney's own group funded his study.

    He is self-funded.

    It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of this point.

    I wonder if he ever tried to compete for funding on the basis of scientific merit and results in hand, maybe from SOSORT (if they have that sort of thing) or even a mainstream research funding agency.

    I have heard of one or two independently wealthy research scientists in my field who fund their own research. I haven't followed it but I have to wonder if they publish much without vetting of their ideas.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    6,797
    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post

    Linda, since you do not know how many per day she exercises, how do you know it is "a lot"? A person who enjoys working out may find an hour per day little, whereas a sedentary person may find 10 minutes per day too hard to manage. Is there any way for you to find out?
    It's how she makes her living. I would estimate that it's on the order of 40 hours a week.

    http://www.yogaforscoliosis.com

    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    And so what if she has to continue to exercise for the rest of her life?
    Sharon can obviously speak for herself, but I suspect her point is that it's unlikely that the most of us are willing to spend 40 hours a week for the rest of our lives, to retain any correction.
    Last edited by LindaRacine; 07-19-2009 at 12:12 PM.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    This person clearly has put a lot of work into making positive changes in her body, and I find Pooka's comment about "wishful thinking" quite insulting.
    I find your casual insouciance towards laying out the facts that people likely most want to know like is the correction permanent very troubling.

    You know or should know that folks are looking for long term solutions. Read Mamamax's posts. They are instructive and representative. Exercise, since health problems may interfere with it, is not a long term solution if you are hospitalized and can't exercise and lose all your hard won improvement.

    Do you ever consider those things? Not everyone can maintain an exercise regime every damn day for the rest of their life and it isn't necessarily due to being lazy for chrissake.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 07-19-2009 at 12:22 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •