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Thread: Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

  1. #691
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    Back by popular demand

    Scott's 2015 Update
    These are his results so far.
    2008 - Age 5 - 11 degrees
    2009 - Age 6 - 14 degrees (or thereabouts)
    2010 - Age 7 - 18.6 degrees (Torso Rotation and computer measurements began here)
    2011 - Age 8 - 20.2 degrees
    2012 - Age 9 - 20.0 degrees
    2013 - Age 10 - 19.0 degrees
    2014 - Age 11 - 21.0 degrees
    2015 - Age 12 - "Unchanged"

    I didn't attend Scott's 2015 visit. The doctor told my wife that Scott's curve was "unchanged". I'm sorry that's the number for this year. "Unchanged"

    We still do TRS once each week. Over the past year Scott has taken an interest in weight lifting so we do that as well. He lifts weights simply because he likes it, not for his Scoliosis. The kid has biceps and pecs and pretty much every girl in his class falls all over him. Yes it's disgusting. 8-)

    I didn't realize that parents were still following Scott and I don't enjoy posting on this board which is why I am doing my update so late. Sorry about that.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-23-2016 at 09:55 PM.

  2. #692
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    Thanks for the update! Unchanged for the 5 years he's been doing rotational strength training. Not bad! I know you have done a lot with melatonin and sleep and other things as well. Something appears to be working. Hopefully this pattern of 'unchanged' remains!

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    Thanks for the update! Unchanged for the 5 years he's been doing rotational strength training. Not bad! I know you have done a lot with melatonin and sleep and other things as well. Something appears to be working. Hopefully this pattern of 'unchanged' remains!
    Thanks Kevin!

    Scott began sleeping in total darkness a year or two before we started TRS to maximize his production of melatonin. His curve continued to progress so although it may (or may not) have improved his sleep it didn't appear to help his curve. We started doing lots of stretching and exercise around the same time which didn't seem to help.

    TRS is the only thing that seems to have worked.

    Currently we do two additional things that may or may not help.

    1) Due to the growing interest in the association between low vitamin-D and Scoliosis we make sure Scott gets enough sun. Not hard to do in Arizona. 8-)
    2) There is a TON of interest in the connection between the Microbiome and disease. We have greatly reduced Scott's consumption of processed foods and sugars. In addition we make sure he gets plenty of fruit, vegetables and a cup of Sauerkraut (loaded with natural probiotics) every day. We get that at a local Polish deli.

    I'll be back next year! Unless something interesting happens first.

  4. #694
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    If I could start another science career it would probably be on the microbiome. That and epigenetics are two incredibly exciting fields right now. But the microbiome and disease is extremely interesting. Some of the studies coming out on obesity or IBD are pretty incredible. Making skinny mice fat, or vice versa, simply by switching their gut microbiota is beyond unexpected.

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    If I could start another science career it would probably be on the microbiome. That and epigenetics are two incredibly exciting fields right now. But the microbiome and disease is extremely interesting. Some of the studies coming out on obesity or IBD are pretty incredible. Making skinny mice fat, or vice versa, simply by switching their gut microbiota is beyond unexpected.
    Yep I saw that mouse study too. Amazing! Depression, heart disease, cancer, autoimmune diseases, allergies all appear to have some connection with the microbiome.

    Every few weeks I check to see if someone has published a study on the Microbiome and Scoliosis but so far no luck. A small percentage of Scoliosis curves reconcile on their own and nobody knows why. I wonder if someday they'll determine that has something to do with a change in the Microbiome. Time will tell. In the meantime I'm crossing my fingers. 8-)

  6. #696
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    Dingo, great to know about Scott good news again. Certainly I think that TRM is something effective, there are strong reasons to think it. I always think my daughter should to prove with it although adaptations needed for her curve would be hard, but probably possible.
    It seems that bee venom is an extraordinary antimicrobian. I saw a group of someone saying her daughter improved her curve with it.. who knows..
    I hope to see you again here.

  7. #697
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    The study participants in both torso rotation studies used the narrow, 30 degree position for their exercises. For that reason Scott also uses the 30 degree position. However there is some evidence that the body grows stronger when greater range of motion is used.

    Range of motion: Full vs. Partial. Which is better when it comes to muscle size and strength?

    The first long-term study (12-weeks) compared the effects of parallel and quarter squats over full range back squats. Their findings showed that full range back squats produced higher increases in quadriceps muscle cross-sectional area than a quarter squat.
    In 2012, a 10-week study [1] evaluated strength and muscle gain differences between full ROM and partial ROM when performing preacher curls. The full ROM group increased strength by 25.7%. The full ROM group increased bicep thickness by 9.52%. The partial ROM group increased strength by 16.0%. The partial ROM group increased bicep thickness by 7.37%.
    In 2013 Bloomquist and his researchers compared the effects of partial ROM (0-60 degrees) and full ROM (0-120 degrees) on thigh muscle cross-sectional area when performing a back squat.
    Both groups were asked to do 3-4 sets of 3-10 reps both to failure and then not to failure. Their results found the group who performed full ROM increased total quad muscle cross-sectional area across the entire sites of the quadriceps, whereas the partial ROM group only saw increases across two heads of the quadriceps and at the most proximal sites - the site nearest the hip. Additionally the full ROM groups also noticed a greater muscle cross-sectional area at the back of the thigh (hamstrings) than the group who performed partial reps.
    Lastly, another study done in 2012 by McMahon looked at partial ROM vs. full ROM on three knee extension exercises using 80% of 1RM on the squat, leg press and leg extension. The researchers found that the vastus lateralis muscle cross-sectional area increased significantly in both groups. They also noted the full ROM group displayed greater relative gains in the vastus lateralis muscle cross-sectional area compared to the partial ROM group. However, the difference between groups was only significant at the end of the 8-weeks, with the full ROM group displaying a 15% increase compared to the partial ROM group, showing only a 10% increase in the muscles size and strength.
    Starting today we're going to experiment and increase his range from 30 degrees to 60 degrees or maybe more depending on what is comfortable. Scott has to do TRS until age 17 so for us this is a marathon and we can't afford an injury. But if greater range of motion provides a better result and it doesn't hurt we're going to give it a shot.

  8. #698
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    Tonight we increased Scott's angle of rotation from 30 degrees up to 90 degrees but he said it hurt his back. We tried 75 degrees but it still felt uncomfortable. We brought it down to 60 degrees and it felt fine.

    The increase to 60 degrees caused the weight to feel heavier so we had to reduce that from 50 pounds down to 40 pounds. That was a 20% reduction in weight.

    Scott said that the increased rotation worked his back a lot harder even at the lighter weight.

    My hope is that this will work more of the muscle which will in turn give us better results.

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Tonight we increased Scott's angle of rotation from 30 degrees up to 90 degrees but he said it hurt his back. We tried 75 degrees but it still felt uncomfortable. We brought it down to 60 degrees and it felt fine.

    The increase to 60 degrees caused the weight to feel heavier so we had to reduce that from 50 pounds down to 40 pounds. That was a 20% reduction in weight.

    Scott said that the increased rotation worked his back a lot harder even at the lighter weight.

    My hope is that this will work more of the muscle which will in turn give us better results.
    I really hope that all this lifelong exercise works for Scott. If it doesn't, exercise never hurt anyone and he will be in great shape if, hopefully not, surgery is ever needed.

    Good Luck,
    Rohrer01
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  10. #700
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    I wish to know if TRM could be used as I think in big curves but flexibles spines, enough flexibles to reach a reduction while the exercise is done, so the curve would be under the limit.. I think it was 45.

  11. #701
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    I am sure folks are wondering if Dingo's son is still holding his curve.

    Actually I wonder if annual reports to the group are necessary until his son is in the teenage growth spurt.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  12. #702
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    my thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I am sure folks are wondering if Dingo's son is still holding his curve.

    Actually I wonder if annual reports to the group are necessary until his son is in the teenage growth spurt.
    Pooka1,

    I think annual reports have both pros and cons during this time period. It is helpful to see what, it anything, a curve is doing when the adolescent is not growing and provides a basis in which to compare periods of growth. The down side is that many parents may look at the x-ray readings prior to a period of growth and think this means the treatment is "working".

    At this point, we really need another study that includes 20-40 moderate size curves using Mooney's protocols throughout the growth spurt AND then follows the teenagers annually via x-rays for five years after they stop the PT at end of Risser 4; a modified McIntyre follow-thru. Ideally, they would all be female, with a right thoracic w/ or w/out a left lumbar curve completing the PT 2x a week, but we all know that isn't going to happen so second choice is fewer adolescents of both genders w/ left & right thoracic curves and w/ or w/out a lumbar curve completing the PT 1x a week.

    McIntyre's study was valuable because it demonstrated that the curves will begin progressing again if the PT is stopped too soon, but the exercise protocol used in his research was unnecessarily complicated without added benefit so I would not go that route. I also would not recommend including any home torso rotation exercises between workouts. In a long term exercise program it is import to Keep It Simple Sweetie (KISS) and to build in a support system to improve the chances of continued compliance.

    When we began our plan, I used the results seen in bracing to estimate when it would be safe to stop the PT (everyone knows that stopping appropriate brace wear after 6 months and expecting it to stabilize the curve during future growth is as useless as not wearing a brace at all in the long run). I don't know exactly how mature the skeleton needs to be before the PT can be stopped, but a conservative baseline would need to be set and later others could determine how much less time could be spent doing the PT.

    lol, if you will please link me with professionals and funding we can get the process started!!! (10 min aerobic exercise, 10 rep.s left & right at #3, and 10 rep.s on a roman chair once a week from the time the curve is noted, including annual (or more frequent as determined by their ortho) x-rays until they are skeletally mature; followed by 5 annual x-rays) I would love to work on a project like this, but do not have any medical training so I will never be allowed to take part in such a project.

    Oh well, I did it with one person

    A Mom
    Last edited by AMom; 11-04-2016 at 09:27 PM. Reason: correction

  13. #703
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    German Study linking Polio Vaccine with Scoliosis

    While cruising around the internet, I found mention of a German study linking the polio vaccine to scoliosis. The vaccine given to babies/ toddlers may cause scoliosis in certain individuals. Does anyone know anything else about this? Something about the vaccine can mess up mythelaticn, or something like that.................

  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nim View Post
    While cruising around the internet, I found mention of a German study linking the polio vaccine to scoliosis. The vaccine given to babies/ toddlers may cause scoliosis in certain individuals. Does anyone know anything else about this? Something about the vaccine can mess up mythelaticn, or something like that.................
    Scoliosis is sometimes linked to polio. I can't find any reputable source linking the vaccine to scoliosis. You have to be careful when reading the internet about vaccines... lots of wacky sites out there. Also, check if a chiropractor published that article. Chiros are notoriously anti-vaccine because they have no training in science. Chiro is more like a trade like massage. Just ignore anything about infectious disease posted by a chiro.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 11-08-2016 at 06:16 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #705
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    I would choose scoliosis over polio if I had to choose...just saying. Kinda reminds me of a similar post a few years ago blaming scoliosis on putting infants to sleep on their backs to prevent SIDS. Seems like a no-brainer to me, even if it were true.
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

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